[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
nathalie coupet
nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 23 15:43:23 UTC 2017
Thank you! Nathalie
On Thursday, March 23, 2017 11:39 AM, Lisa Phifer <lisa at corecom.com> wrote:
Nathalie and all,
This and other background documents can be found on this page:
https://community.icann.org/display/gTLDRDS/Additional+Key+Inputs
In this case, see the following --
Procedure for Handling Conflicts with National Laws
- GNSO Policy underlying current ICANN Procedure (2006)
- ICANN Procedure For Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law (2008)
- Review of the ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with PrivacyLaw (2014)
- 2013 RAA'sData Retention Specification Waiver andDiscussion Document (2014)
- Final Report on the Implementation Advisory Group Review of ExistingICANN Procedure for Handling Whois Conflicts with Privacy Laws(2016)
Best, Lisa
At 09:08 AM 3/23/2017, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
Hi Lisa,
Could you refer me to the documents providing for the Exception to theapplication of a law due to conflict, that was referred to at some point(by teh WG on transition from thin to thick Whois)?
Thank you,
Nathalie
On Thursday, March 23, 2017 11:00AM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>wrote:
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:44, Volker Greimann<vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
Whois is the rope with which bad actors hangthemselves.
Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors justpopulate whois with data of unknowing third parties, thereby renderingany verification and validation instruments useless and inconveniencingthe affected data subjects as well.
I think maybe its best you let the people who do this work speak for thevalue of the information. We're using it in criminal investigationsand prosecutions. You're just simply taking theirmoney.
Believe it or not, bad actors cost us money. We'd loveto be able to "not to take their money" as it is a poisonedpill.
And we see the whois data used by criminals all the time, when we look atthe reports we are sent. Usually it is fake data ripped from some onlinedatabase or the phone book.
So its a baseless allegation that investigators might have expertise inhow they use this data? Only domain registrars who have a financialrelationship with the criminals know how to use this data?
Ireferred to your last sentence which directly implied that registrars ingeneral and the registrar I am employed with in particular profit fromcriminals using their service. This is a baseless allegation that couldnot be farther from the truth, as I have previously explained.
That's a rather dramatic misreading. We investigate crimes so I wouldappreciate due deference to what data is valuable or not. Your role hereis providing a service. You don't work with law enforcement toinvestigate crimes, do you?
I have used the law to craft apossible solution but no DP authority has taken your position.
Ultimately, that may be the road we have to take if nobetter solution to provide registrar services legally presents itself,but as I pointed out, that will ultimately serve no one. Registrars willhave to raise their fees to incorporate the service, crime fighters andLEAs will have a much more difficult time getting ANY data acrossborders. Your "solution" would just make your own work a lotharder.
I think perhaps deference to my opinion as to what would make MY workharder might be warranted. If you agree, I offer the same deference toyou in matters in which your expertise is germane. Deal?
You are simply taking theposition that if your profits aren't maximized and your costs aren'tminimized it is illegal. This position is untenable.
Again,I resent you putting words into my mouth. Please do not make statementson my behalf or try to turn your assumptions into a claim of what I amsaying. I am saying that anything we come up with will have to be in fullcompliance with legal requirements. And if there is a cost attached tothat solution, that cost will be passed on somewhere, one way or another,not because I want it to but because I know that is the way itworks.
To which I agree. Let's craft a legal solution the represents the best ofwhat we can offer for all ours (you, me, and everyone else's) interests.I think we can do balance. Will you join me in trying?
> You have a contract withICANN, that contract establishes requirements. Those requirements make itlegal.
If you believe that, you probably still believe in Trump and other thingsas well. The above statement is so supendiously wrong, it boggles themind. You are basically saying that a contract to break the law somehowmakes it ok to do so? So if we signed a contract tomorrow to rob thelocal bank, that absolves us from any guilt?
No one care about your inane political opinions.
So I wasright?
Also good attempt at dodging the argument, but the point I made stillstands.
No, I just don't think constantly injecting your political opinions ishelpful. I won't inject comments about Merkel because they areirrelevant. Let's get out of our trenches and have more constructivedialogue. Will you join me?
For clarity: The contract with ICANN can say that pigs may fly, but thatdoes not change the laws of physics. If anything in the contract or ICANNpolicies violates applicable law, that part of the contract is null andvoid, does not apply, can be ignored, has no relevance, etc, etc. BTW: iteven says so in the RAA. Maybe you can find the relevant passageyourself...
If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have the facts onyour side, pound the facts. Since you have neither, you pound thetable.
Just because you appear not to like the factsor the laws, they do not become less applicable.
No one has all the facts here and no one is a master of the laws of everynation on this subject. Let's build bridges to build commonunderstanding. Can I count on you?
But we can find criminals fasterwith it! - No legal relevance.
But we want to contact infringers! - No legal relevance.
etc...
ICANN sets the rules, you get to follow them.
If ICANN setsillegal rules, we get to ignore them. So why set illegal rules in thefirst place? To trap the unwitting and careless registrars?
You get a voice, we get a voice.
Your voice can demand anything it likes, but if it is not incompliance with the law, it will be ignored. And rightly so.
That's how contracts work.
Nope! Contracts do not allow a contracted party to break thelaw. There is a reason assassination contracts are illegal.
No one is suggesting you break the law. Calm down.
Chuck, this is why we're intrench warfare. And it isn't going to change.
Appearsso. If one side continues to demand the illegal and the impossible fortheir own benefit, we will get nowhere. So why not educate yourself onthe requirements of current and upcoming privacy regulations andafterwards, we can talk again...
No one is demanding anything illegal.
So fully standardizing this willprobably force some registrars to collect and share far more data thanthey currently do, and it's unlikely to reduce the data collected by theones who collect more.
Nope, the opposite is true.
Best,
Volker
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:17 PM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
- Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a future action item could be asurvey of who various classes of stakeholders use RDS/whois.
- Sent from my iPhone
- On Mar 21, 2017, at 21:07, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
- I have a hard time understanding what very stakeholder wants. Ifevery group of stakeholder could write down how they see the new RDSfunctioning, just by doing a Venn diagram, we could better understandwhat we have in common and what we need to foncus on to reducedifferences of opinion.
- But that would require more work from already busy people. I thinkthough, it could give us a more tangible view of what we are up against.
- My .02 cents
-
-
- Nathalie
- On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:45PM, Andrew Sullivan<ajs at anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:
- On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 03:01:50PM -0500, John Bambenek viagnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
- > Except that is not the only approach to the problem nor the onesexclusively used by DP authorities (i.e. Twitter). That is why I askedthe question I did and why I will be lobbying them directly for whoisprivacy for free.
- >
- But I thought the point of what we were doing was to make some
- proposals for what to mask and how -- basically, that's what
- differential access does. And I also thought we were at thebeginning
- of that effort (much as it frustrates me the rate at which wemove).
- > The question of whether fields are optional or can be"masked" is inherently part of this discussion.
- >
- That's just conflating two different things. The first thing isto
- ask whether something should be collected _at all_. Then onecan ask,
- if something is collected, who may obtain it and under what
- circumstances. This latter is the "masking" of whichyou speak. And
- it's all implemented as it currently is because whois isbrain-dead.
- So let us not be restricted to the functionality we can get froma
- primitive protocol that had already been extended well beyondits
- design constraints more than 20 years ago.
- > To enable third-parties to communicate directly to resolve andtroubleshoot problems.
- I suggest that's already there.
- > To enable third-parties to report abuse or security incidents sothey may be resolved.
- This too.
- > To enable users and entities to have information to adjudicatean entity is who they say they are (for instance phishing, scams, fakenews).
- >
- I find it impossible to imagine using the whois for this purpose,so
- I'd like a use description for this. Since it's notauthenticated or
- authenticatable information anyway, as there are no signatures andso
- on, it seems a pretty poor way to do it. This is partlyincluded in
- the purposes however when we discuss X.509 certificates.
- > ICANN isn't just a business to confer domain names. Its aquasi-regulatory body over a "commons" and a natural monopoly.The purposes must be viewed beyond the prism of the mereregistrar-consumer relationship as many interests are relevant and justas important.
- >
- While I strongly agree that the purposes need to be rather widerthan
- the domain name industry, I'm uncomfortable with both of the claimsof
- quasi-regulatory authority, the notion of the Internet as acommons.
- The root zone is indeed a natural monopoly, though.
- Best regards,
- A
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
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Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
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Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay
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