[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
benny at nordreg.se
benny at nordreg.se
Thu Mar 23 16:03:42 UTC 2017
So whois privacy are no longer the most evil thing?
Let me quote your rant on me earlier!
"Let me translate Allison's comments in the light of your mockery.
You're ideas of privacy are patently absurd and your arrogance that entire industries need to rewrite how they do things to suit your effete and fantastical notions is breathtaking. Your mockery of people who investigate crime is just icing on the cake. Its not a question of looking past your own walls, its a question of whether you religious fanatics can acknowledge that other use cases are valid (or are we not part of the "all" in "better for all"). Are you really suggesting preventing spam is a higher priority than stopping human trafficking online?
If someone who had need of privacy came to me for advice on registering a domain name I would tell them absolutely not to do it. Use blogspot or any other mechanism that doesn't involve a financial transaction to shield your privacy. Creating paper trails is always a poor life decision when OPSEC matters. Anything less and I would stop taking your concerns seriously.
That said, we have a viable compromise, its called whois privacy protection. And it allows me to use risk based decisions on how I treat traffic to such domains.
But if you wish to enable criminals to better hide so they can steal people's life savings, so they can anonymously traffic in child exploitation or to engage in sextortion against teenage girls all because you can't handle a spam filter, you can count me one that will line up against you and very publicly label you an enabler of child sexual exploitation. Then I will go to Congress, drag ICANN back under the Department of Commerce and ensure some adult supervision is had.
Or you can calm the hell down and knock it off with your attitude and we can find a viable middle ground. Totally your call.
And if you are really concerned about spammers, I help run investigations against them too (using whois data, in part) and could totally use the help. “
--
Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
Benny Samuelsen
Registry Manager - Domainexpert
Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
IANA-ID: 638
Phone: +46.42197080
Direct: +47.32260201
Mobile: +47.40410200
> On 23 Mar 2017, at 15:11, gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org wrote:
>
> Soon all of you will be forced to offer whois privacy for free.
>
> I'll leave it to you to figure out the economics.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:07, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Allison,
>>
>>>
>>> Several registrars already offer free whois privacy. They made it work, so you should keep up!
>> Most such registrars still charge for the same service, it is just that the cost is hidden in their more expensive registration fees. Or they do not handle complaints appropriately. Or, or, or...
>>
>> Ultimately, someone is going to pay for the service, and it is not the registrar offering it for "free".
>>
>> TANSTAAFL.
>>>
>>> Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with data of unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any verification and validation instruments useless and inconveniencing the affected data subjects as well.
>>>
>>> I'm glad you know so much about how bad actors abuse whois. But from my own limited experiences- I don't see that many input validation mechanisms on bad domains because there are a lot of "555-5555" phone numbers out there and other arbitrary strings.
>> I see what comes over my desk. Most domains we find involved in whois have perfectly formed and verifiable whois. The data just does not match the person who registered it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some points/thoughts :
>>> Cost of providing the service (this includes cost of the office, personnel to run it - unless you are going to offer this free "John B" to all ICANN registrars ?)
>>> The underlying data may not even be allowed to be provided to the whois privacy service, unless it is in the local jurisdiction of the registrant.
>>> Harvesting and storage of whois data to be re-wrapped and sold is illegal and many registrars state this on the terms and conditions.
>>> Gated access has to be properly defined for each gate/right of access, an example, a registrar would normally only need access to external whois for the purpose of transferring a domain name - they have no other reason to need access to this data. (registration, is totally different as it doesnt need access to the "whois") As above, storage of whois data is illegal unless it was for a lawful purpose and the only one I can think of is transfers. ICANN require registrars to keep this info for upto 2 or 7 years (cant remember which). This will step on some registrars toes as well as John H's toes whi have a business model around the supply of whois data for commercial gain (namely charging for it).
>>> I am sorry to say that none of what the WG will do or complete will stop bad actors, they are smart, they are not dumb (well some of them are:) )
>>>
>>> so who decided that these normal uses of whois are suddenly illegal? I hereby declare my allegiance to the dark side. Down with the government.
>> Depends on the terms you accept when you make the whois inquiry. You may be violating the terms of the registrar or registry providing the whois service.
>> Please note that ICANN mandates that registrars have an access agreement in place for any bulk request of whois data, most registrar apply the same rules for use of their whois data in general.
>> And yes, registrars are free to contractually limit the uses the data they provide can be put to.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net> wrote:
>>> Typo materialistic should have been minimalistic
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> From: "Chris Pelling" <chris at netearth.net>
>>> To: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, 23 March, 2017 12:06:01
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I hope everyone got home safe that attended ICANN58 :)
>>>
>>> Having just sat through and played catch up on this thread, a few things stand out to me.
>>>
>>> On one side you have a stakeholder person (maybe group) advocating they will pushing for "free whois protection" provided by registrar which simply won't happen - for a number of reasons (see below), whereas the fundamental issue is what will be collected and who will be able to see it. Maybe this could be worked on from a materialistic point of view, really what does WHOIS/RDS need to show as its most basic data, I remember a discussion some months ago where Michele mentioned about simply domain name, dates of registration, expiry and DNS servers. (registrar name and abuse contact details are a given to be shown)
>>>
>>> The storage of such data depending on "whom" the registrant and/or other contacts are located, and where it is being seen from (different jurisdiction for example) will come out further down the line in our deliberations.
>>>
>>> Some points/thoughts :
>>> • Cost of providing the service (this includes cost of the office, personnel to run it - unless you are going to offer this free "John B" to all ICANN registrars ?)
>>> • The underlying data may not even be allowed to be provided to the whois privacy service, unless it is in the local jurisdiction of the registrant.
>>> • Harvesting and storage of whois data to be re-wrapped and sold is illegal and many registrars state this on the terms and conditions.
>>> • Gated access has to be properly defined for each gate/right of access, an example, a registrar would normally only need access to external whois for the purpose of transferring a domain name - they have no other reason to need access to this data. (registration, is totally different as it doesnt need access to the "whois") As above, storage of whois data is illegal unless it was for a lawful purpose and the only one I can think of is transfers. ICANN require registrars to keep this info for upto 2 or 7 years (cant remember which). This will step on some registrars toes as well as John H's toes whi have a business model around the supply of whois data for commercial gain (namely charging for it).
>>> • I am sorry to say that none of what the WG will do or complete will stop bad actors, they are smart, they are not dumb (well some of them are:) )
>>> As for John H and clowns, I would gladly offer my services to help you get over that :) My issue/phobia is the dark, sadly for me that is a reality I won't be able to overcome.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> From: "John Horton" <john.horton at legitscript.com>
>>> To: "nathalie coupet" <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 22 March, 2017 16:33:22
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
>>>
>>> Thanks, Nathalie. I'm sure many share your frustration!
>>>
>>> I think that's a constructive question, and I'll jump in. My biggest fear is that in the monitoring that companies like mine do for banks, payment providers, e-commerce companies, etc. that helps determine whether a merchant is who they say they are, and whether they are engaged in other bad activity (i.e., laundering money) will be unable to obtain access to the Whois records we need in order to preserve the integrity of the payments system, protect payment providers from risk, and derivatively protect consumers. In other words, my fear is that we'll lose access to Whois records, which we need for that purpose.
>>>
>>> Actually, to be honest, that's not true -- my biggest fear (to answer your question directly) is of clowns, and every time I travel, I ask the hotel to please check for clowns in my closet before I enter the room. But I assume you didn't really want to know my biggest fear -- you just want to know my biggest fear in relation to Whois policy, correct? Two different things, but yeah -- if a clown jumped out of my hotel closet, that would probably be the realization of my biggest fear. That's probably nothing that this working group can do much about, though.
>>>
>>> John Horton
>>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>>
>>>
>>> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Blog | Google+
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:24 AM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>>> +1 I must say I'm a bit disillusioned by the entire process. This PDP should look like a negotiating table, instead it is more like a War of Trenches.
>>> If stakeholders are not motivated to negotiate, there is no sense of urgency and stakes for change are so low, then I wonder what we are doing here in the first place.
>>> Could every stakeholder state what their biggest fear is, and we could try to avoid their realization?
>>> Or maybe, in last resort, we should just vote for the best proposal and go home?
>>>
>>> Nathalie
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 12:06 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:19:56AM -0500, John Bambenek wrote:
>>> >> Yes there is a difference which is why I am using both words. And that's why I am suggesting we talking about optional and maskable fields right up front as part of the requirements discussion not some ancillary discussion that happens later after all the decisions are already made.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > I thought the WG had already decided on a different (multi-pass)
>>> > strategy, in which data collection itself was treated first with the
>>> > principle that, if there were some (legitmate, hand-wave hand-wave)
>>> > purpose then collection would be considered. Later, the further
>>> > question of access to such collected items would be taken up.
>>> >
>>> > I don't really care which way we do this, but it seems to me that we
>>> > need to stop arguing about the way by which we'll reach a result and
>>> > start actually doing work in the direction of some result. The
>>> > meta-discussions about process are wearing out contributors (well, at
>>> > least one contributor!) and creating the condition in which those who
>>> > want no changes at all will get their way by exhaustion. If ICANN is
>>> > incapable of coming to terms with the deficiencies of whois (the
>>> > protocol) after all this time, it will be revealed to be ridiculous.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > A
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Andrew Sullivan
>>> > ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
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>>>
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
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