[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration Date
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Oct 10 09:09:25 UTC 2017
Hi Jonathan,
the domain object ID is indeed part of the whois:
From the Whois of a .org domain -> Registry Domain ID: D104189961-LROR
From the Whois of a .com domain -> Registry Domain ID: 4065057_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
From the Whois of a .Saarland domain -> Registry Domain ID: 8932212620_DOMAIN-SAAR
It is a unique identifier for a registration.
Best,
Volker
Am 10.10.2017 um 05:18 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
> Is the Domain Object ID displayed?
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 3:34 PM Sara Bockey <sbockey at godaddy.com
> <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com>> wrote:
>
> I agree with Volker.
>
> Sara
>
> *sara bockey*
>
> *sr. policy manager | **Go**Daddy^™ *
>
> *sbockey at godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com> 480-366-3616*
>
> *skype: sbockey*
>
> /This email message and any attachments hereto is intended for use
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> *From: *<gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Volker
> Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> *Date: *Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:13 AM
> *To: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original
> Registration Date
>
> I still think that the only date that should be included is the
> creation date of a domain name as all potential previous
> registrations of the same string refer to a different domain object.
>
> A domain that once existed and has been permanently deleted at the
> registry level is not the same as a domain registered when the
> string became available again, and we should not try to conflate
> both into one object.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 02.10.2017 um 05:28 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>
> The point is that without it, you run the risk of
> misunderstandings of what the creation date implies for
> starters. While that could be mitigated arguably with
> disclaimers, there’s no personal information in indicating
> whether there are known prior registration dates and the
> expert working group recommended that original registration
> date be included. This is just more accurate. Plus the Whois
> is the most direct evidence without necessarily having to ask
> for documents that would include personal information. So this
> potentially reduces the need for personal information
> disclosure. If someone wants to get their domain back that
> inadvertently lapsed, there would be an indicator that it was
> previously registered without having to necessarily prove it.
> Plus records can more easily be forged. This couldn’t be.
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 12:30 PM Stephanie Perrin
> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
> Surely there are many other ways an individual could prove
> the original registration date of a domain, other than it
> being in the WHOIS?
>
> Stephanie Perrin
>
> On 2017-09-28 18:22, jonathan matkowsky wrote:
>
> There is a lot going on in the last week, and I am
> *still* playing catch up.
>
> I apologize with the religious high holidays at the
> end of last week and my travel right before that, I
> dropped the ball, but I want to emphasize that the
> poll that was circulated framing the issue as to
> whether there is a requirement for the Original
> Registration Date in the EWG Final Report is not the
> issue in my humble opinion. The issue is whether it
> was recommended. And it was. Very clearly. And for
> good reasons. Some of those were specified in the EWG
> Final Report on page 132, and illustrated in the annex
> thereto.
>
> There are many very important reasons why this
> recommendation was being made from my perspective. I'm
> not going to re-hash them. I am convinced that the
> reasons why the EWG as a whole made this
> recommendation would be best satisfied by the counter
> and indicator of unknown or yes status. To just focus
> on the technical reasons why they could have done a
> better job defining the Original Registration Date
> element as a justification to dismiss the *importance*
> of the element on the basis it was not required would
> be unfortunate.
>
> Domains may be registered and deleted throughout the
> day literally within fifteen minutes apart. Others who
> lose their domain inadvertently and then want to use
> that original registration date as a point of
> reference in domain recovery should not lose that
> opportunity. On the flip side, to be fair, someone who
> is the subject of a UDRP deserves the opportunity to
> point to the original registration date as evidence
> the domain was allowed to lapse. When valuating domain
> names for sale, it is important that there be a public
> record that there may be a cloud on the title. etc.
>
> The fact that it's unknown there is a prior existing
> registration is important information. It let's people
> know that the creation date does not mean it is the
> first time the string has ever been created while at
> the same time letting us know when we know for sure
> that there has been such a prior registration in the
> future when deletions are tracked. While technically
> that may be obvious to us here, that is not
> necessarily obvious to many who rely on Whois. So the
> fact it is set to unknown serves a very important
> purpose. Furthermore, when it is actually known, that
> is vital information to provide (nobody said registry
> operators have to gather historical data that is
> burdensome or that some might not even have). I am not
> convinced it is too much to ask registry operators to
> keep track of deletions in the future. Doing so may
> not be hard to implement and would meet the
> recommendations of the EWG. Part of the work we are
> doing here has to have long-term vision and not just
> whether it is helpful in the short term for our
> personal or commercial purposes at hand. A lot of
> people in future generations are counting on us.
>
> The particular date is not as important to meet the
> underlying objectives of the EWG in coming up with
> this recommendation. I would also not dismiss outright
> how this counter will eventually serve an important
> function as an indicator of severe abuse that is
> taking place behind the scenes that nobody has easy
> access to see but can be in the future would be more
> readily apparent from following the EWG's
> recommendation in this regard (albeit, interpreting
> their recommendation more liberally to satisfy the
> policy considerations and purposes they identified).
>
> All of that said, I recognize and respect that others
> may disagree on this. I would at least then recommend
> that we ensure that the specific ID number that must
> be collected anyway from an engineering perspective is
> required to actually be *displayed* to tenuously meet
> the objectives of the EWG indirectly since its being
> exposed in a protocol anyway by definition. While this
> is a lot more work and not as helpful to many Internet
> users as the compromised suggestion to meet their
> recommendation, at least we have protection assuming
> there are historical records as readily available as
> today and that people can point out the different
> object ID numbers for these strings and explain what
> that means.
>
> Okay, I'm moving on unless there is a group that feels
> based on what I've said, that we should at least
> re-visit briefly. I recognize that there are *many* on
> this string with a lot more experience than me and
> knowledge coming from different vantage points, but
> feel it is important to at least lay this out in case
> others agree, as I wasn't on the call and couldn't
> chime in, in as a timely manner for which I express my
> regrets.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Chuck
> <consult at cgomes.com <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
>
> I want to request that any members who think there
> is value in the 'counter'
> data element to please answer Paul's question: "
> So the utility of the
> counter seems highly limited. Does it even
> deliver the usefulness that its proponents want it
> to?" Please share what
> you think that value is on this list by Monday of
> next week.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On
> Behalf Of Paul Keating
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 8:32 AM
> To: Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>; Andrew Sullivan
> <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
> <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>>;
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement
> for Original Registration
> Date
>
> And what is the intended purpose sought to be
> achieved?
>
> On 9/21/17, 5:15 PM, "Greg Aaron"
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on
> behalf of gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >The upshot is that the counter would probably
> start at "Unknown" for
> >all existing domains.
> >* Once implemented, the feature has little
> usefulness until years in
> >the future, when some domains get re-registered
> and those strings
> >accumulate some history.
> >* But many domains get renewed year after year.
> Those wouldn't
> >accumulate counter history, and would be set to
> Unknown either forever,
> >or for long periods if they are ever allowed to
> expire and if they are
> >then re-registered. This is a significant
> portion of domains. For
> >example .COM has an renewal rate of around 72%.
> >
> >So the utility of the counter seems highly
> limited. Does it even
> >deliver the usefulness that its proponents want
> it to?
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> >[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] On
> Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
> >Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 10:49 AM
> >To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement
> for Original
> >Registration Date
> >
> >On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 02:28:39PM +0000, Greg
> Aaron wrote:
> >> The alternate proposal is a simple marker that
> says whether there has
> >>been a known previous iteration of the domain
> string, having been
> >>registered with a different ROID.
> >>
> >
> >Or a counter, of course, rather than just the
> marker. From the point
> >of view of implementation in a database, I think
> these two options are
> >approximately the same, so I prefer the counter
> because it provides an
> >additional bit of data (that is, that the domain
> is changing -- you can
> >watch it happen).
> >
> >> And it still presents the same operational
> problem: the registry has
> >>to figure out whether a string has existed
> before. That is something
> >>registries are not designed to do. And they may
> not have the
> >>necessary historical records. See the notes below.
> >>
> >
> >Well, no, that's part of the point of the new
> proposal: the registry
> >_doesn't_ have to figure that out, because the
> counter can be set to
> >"unknown" (in a SQL database, you'd probably use
> NULL). To support
> >this feature, however, the registry would have to
> track deletions of
> >domain names in the future. So it wouldn't be
> free, but it also
> >wouldn't be hard to implement. (Any real SQL
> database, for instance,
> >could do this with an ON DELETE trigger.)
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >A
> >
> >--
> >Andrew Sullivan
> >ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
> <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> >_______________________________________________
> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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> Jonathan Matkowsky
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>
>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
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>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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