[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration Date

Paul Keating Paul at law.es
Tue Oct 10 13:36:14 UTC 2017


Volker,

You wrote below:

>> I still think that the only date that should be included is the creation date
>> of a domain name as all potential previous registrations of the same string
>> refer to a different domain object.
>> 
>> A domain that once existed and has been permanently deleted at the registry
>> level is not the same as a domain registered when the string became available
>> again, and we should not try to conflate both into one object.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Volker

The problem I have is that we need to be very careful with terminology.  As
used today, Creation Date signifies the first date of a domain name¹s
CURRENT registration cycle.    If a domain expires AND is deleted and THEN
newly registered again, this new registration will result in a NEW CREATION
DATE.   A domain name that ³expires² but is purchased during a drop auction
is not deleted and thus the Creation Date will remain the same.  This is
because the registration merely transfers (since of course domains are
intangibles and evidenced only by registration records).

Given that this is the case I do not see any need for an "Original
Registration Date² unless its purpose is to track whether or not a domain
name has been registered, deleted and re-registered.

If this is a semiotical issue then I believe that ³Creation Date² is much
more accurate as it references the creation of the instance of registration.
Original Registration Date would imply that it served a purpose by showing
the first date upon which a domain was registered, even if it had expired
AND been deleted.  I see no purpose in such data but am open to being
convinced.  

Furthermore, I do not believe that registries maintain the  data necessary
to determine whether or not the domain had ever been registered.


Paul

From:  <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Chuck
<consult at cgomes.com>
Date:  Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM
To:  'jonathan matkowsky' <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>, 'Sara Bockey'
<sbockey at godaddy.com>, 'Volker Greimann' <vgreimann at key-systems.net>,
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject:  Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration
Date

> Jonathan,
>  
> What do you mean when you say RDS?
>  
> Chuck
>  
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of jonathan matkowsky
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:24 AM
> To: Sara Bockey <sbockey at godaddy.com>; Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net>; gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration
> Date
>  
> 
> Hi. Yes but this is the RDS.
>  
> 
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:09 AM Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>  
>> the domain object ID is indeed part of the whois:
>>  
>> From the Whois of a .org domain -> Registry Domain ID: D104189961-LROR
>> From the Whois of a .com domain -> Registry Domain ID:
>> 4065057_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
>> From the Whois of a .Saarland domain -> Registry Domain ID:
>> 8932212620_DOMAIN-SAAR
>>  
>> It is a unique identifier for a registration.
>>  
>> Best,
>> Volker
>>  
>> 
>> Am 10.10.2017 um 05:18 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>> 
>>> Is the Domain Object ID displayed?
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 3:34 PM Sara Bockey <sbockey at godaddy.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with Volker.
>>>>  
>>>> Sara 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> sara bockey
>>>> sr. policy manager | GoDaddy
>>>> sbockey at godaddy.com  480-366-3616
>>>> 
>>>> skype: sbockey
>>>>  
>>>> This email message and any attachments hereto is intended for use only by
>>>> the addressee(s) named herein and may contain confidential information. If
>>>> you have received this email in error, please immediately notify the sender
>>>> and permanently delete the original and any copy of this message and its
>>>> attachments.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Volker Greimann
>>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>> Date: Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:13 AM
>>>> To: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration
>>>> Date
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> I still think that the only date that should be included is the creation
>>>> date of a domain name as all potential previous registrations of the same
>>>> string refer to a different domain object.
>>>> 
>>>> A domain that once existed and has been permanently deleted at the registry
>>>> level is not the same as a domain registered when the string became
>>>> available again, and we should not try to conflate both into one object.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Volker
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Am 02.10.2017 um 05:28 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The point is that without it, you run the risk of misunderstandings of
>>>>> what the creation date implies for starters. While that could be mitigated
>>>>> arguably with disclaimers, there¹s no personal information in indicating
>>>>> whether there are known prior registration dates and the expert working
>>>>> group recommended that original registration date be included. This is
>>>>> just more accurate. Plus the Whois is the most direct evidence without
>>>>> necessarily having to ask for documents that would include personal
>>>>> information. So this potentially reduces the need for personal information
>>>>> disclosure.  If someone wants to get their domain back that inadvertently
>>>>> lapsed, there would be an indicator that it was previously registered
>>>>> without having to necessarily prove it. Plus records can more easily be
>>>>> forged. This couldn¹t be.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 12:30 PM Stephanie Perrin
>>>>> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Surely there are many other ways an individual could prove the original
>>>>>> registration date of a domain, other than it being in the WHOIS?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-09-28 18:22, jonathan matkowsky wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a lot going on in the last week, and I am *still* playing catch
>>>>>>> up.  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I apologize with the religious high holidays at the end of last week and
>>>>>>> my travel right before that, I dropped the ball, but I want to emphasize
>>>>>>> that the poll that was circulated framing the issue as to whether there
>>>>>>> is a requirement for the Original Registration Date in the EWG Final
>>>>>>> Report is not the issue in my humble opinion. The issue is whether it
>>>>>>> was recommended. And it was. Very clearly. And for good reasons. Some of
>>>>>>> those were specified in the EWG Final Report on page 132, and
>>>>>>> illustrated in the annex thereto.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There are many very important reasons why this recommendation was being
>>>>>>> made from my perspective. I'm not going to re-hash them. I am convinced
>>>>>>> that the reasons why the EWG as a whole made this recommendation would
>>>>>>> be best satisfied by the counter and indicator of unknown or yes status.
>>>>>>> To just focus on the technical reasons why they could have done a better
>>>>>>> job defining the Original Registration Date element as a justification
>>>>>>> to dismiss the *importance* of the element on the basis it was not
>>>>>>> required would be unfortunate.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Domains may be registered and deleted throughout the day literally
>>>>>>> within fifteen minutes apart. Others who lose their domain inadvertently
>>>>>>> and then want to use that original registration date as a point of
>>>>>>> reference in domain recovery should not lose that opportunity. On the
>>>>>>> flip side, to be fair, someone who is the subject of a UDRP deserves the
>>>>>>> opportunity to point to the original registration date as evidence the
>>>>>>> domain was allowed to lapse. When valuating domain names for sale, it is
>>>>>>> important that there be a public record that there may be a cloud on the
>>>>>>> title. etc.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The fact that it's unknown there is a prior existing registration is
>>>>>>> important information. It let's people know that the creation date does
>>>>>>> not mean it is the first time the string has ever been created while at
>>>>>>> the same time letting us know when we know for sure that there has been
>>>>>>> such a prior registration in the future when deletions are tracked.
>>>>>>> While technically that may be obvious to us here, that is not
>>>>>>> necessarily obvious to many who rely on Whois. So the fact it is set to
>>>>>>> unknown serves a very important purpose. Furthermore, when it is
>>>>>>> actually known, that is vital information to provide (nobody said
>>>>>>> registry operators have to gather historical data that is burdensome or
>>>>>>> that some might not even have). I am not convinced it is too much to ask
>>>>>>> registry operators to keep track of deletions in the future. Doing so
>>>>>>> may not be hard to implement and would meet the recommendations of the
>>>>>>> EWG. Part of the work we are doing here has to have long-term vision and
>>>>>>> not just whether it is helpful in the short term for our personal or
>>>>>>> commercial purposes at hand. A lot of people in future generations are
>>>>>>> counting on us.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The particular date is not as important to meet the underlying
>>>>>>> objectives of the EWG in coming up with this recommendation. I would
>>>>>>> also not dismiss outright how this counter will eventually serve an
>>>>>>> important function as an indicator of severe abuse that is taking place
>>>>>>> behind the scenes that nobody has easy access to see but can be in the
>>>>>>> future would be more readily apparent from following the EWG's
>>>>>>> recommendation in this regard (albeit, interpreting their recommendation
>>>>>>> more liberally to satisfy the policy considerations and purposes they
>>>>>>> identified).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> All of that said, I recognize and respect that others may disagree on
>>>>>>> this. I would at least then recommend that we ensure that the specific
>>>>>>> ID number that must be collected anyway from an engineering perspective
>>>>>>> is required to actually be *displayed* to tenuously meet the objectives
>>>>>>> of the EWG indirectly since its being exposed in a protocol anyway by
>>>>>>> definition. While this is a lot more work and not as helpful to many
>>>>>>> Internet users as the compromised suggestion to meet their
>>>>>>> recommendation, at least we have protection assuming there are
>>>>>>> historical records as readily available as today and that people can
>>>>>>> point out the different object ID numbers for these strings and explain
>>>>>>> what that means.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Okay, I'm moving on unless there is a group that feels based on what
>>>>>>> I've said, that we should at least re-visit briefly. I recognize that
>>>>>>> there are *many* on this string with a lot more experience than me and
>>>>>>> knowledge coming from different vantage points, but feel it is important
>>>>>>> to at least lay this out in case others agree, as I wasn't on the call
>>>>>>> and couldn't chime in, in as a timely manner for which I express my
>>>>>>> regrets.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jonathan   
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Chuck <consult at cgomes.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I want to request that any members who think there is value in the
>>>>>>> 'counter'
>>>>>>> data element to please  answer Paul's question:  " So the utility of the
>>>>>>> counter seems highly limited.  Does it even
>>>>>>> deliver the usefulness that its proponents want it to?"  Please share
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> you think that value is on this list by Monday of next week.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 8:32 AM
>>>>>>> To: Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com>; Andrew Sullivan
>>>>>>> <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>;
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original
>>>>>>> Registration
>>>>>>> Date
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And what is the intended purpose sought to be achieved?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9/21/17, 5:15 PM, "Greg Aaron" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on
>>>>>>> behalf of gca at icginc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> >The upshot is that the counter would probably start at "Unknown" for
>>>>>>>> >all existing domains.
>>>>>>>> >* Once implemented, the feature has little usefulness until years in
>>>>>>>> >the future, when some domains get re-registered and those strings
>>>>>>>> >accumulate some history.
>>>>>>>> >* But many domains get renewed year after year.  Those wouldn't
>>>>>>>> >accumulate counter history, and would be set to Unknown either
>>>>>>>> forever,
>>>>>>>> >or for long periods if they are ever allowed to expire and if they are
>>>>>>>> >then re-registered.  This is a significant portion of domains.  For
>>>>>>>> >example .COM has an renewal rate of around 72%.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >So the utility of the counter seems highly limited.  Does it even
>>>>>>>> >deliver the usefulness that its proponents want it to?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> >From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>>> >[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
>>>>>>>> Sullivan
>>>>>>>> >Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 10:49 AM
>>>>>>>> >To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original
>>>>>>>> >Registration Date
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 02:28:39PM +0000, Greg Aaron wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> The alternate proposal is a simple marker that says whether there
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> >>been a known previous iteration of the domain string, having been
>>>>>>>>> >>registered with a different ROID.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >Or a counter, of course, rather than just the marker.  From the point
>>>>>>>> >of view of implementation in a database, I think these two options are
>>>>>>>> >approximately the same, so I prefer the counter because it provides an
>>>>>>>> >additional bit of data (that is, that the domain is changing -- you
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> >watch it happen).
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> And it still presents the same operational problem: the registry
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> >>to figure out whether a string has existed before.  That is
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> >>registries are not designed to do.  And they may not have the
>>>>>>>>> >>necessary historical records.  See the notes below.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >Well, no, that's part of the point of the new proposal: the registry
>>>>>>>> >_doesn't_ have to figure that out, because the counter can be set to
>>>>>>>> >"unknown" (in a SQL database, you'd probably use NULL).  To support
>>>>>>>> >this feature, however, the registry would have to track deletions of
>>>>>>>> >domain names in the future.  So it wouldn't be free, but it also
>>>>>>>> >wouldn't be hard to implement.  (Any real SQL database, for instance,
>>>>>>>> >could do this with an ON DELETE trigger.)
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >A
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >--
>>>>>>>> >Andrew Sullivan
>>>>>>>> >ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *******************************************************************
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>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>> 
>>>>> *******************************************************************
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>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>  
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>  
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>> 
>>> *******************************************************************
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>> 
>> -- 
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>  
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>  
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>  
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1%0D+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail
>> &source=g> 
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>> --------------------------------------------
>>  
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
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>> Best regards,
>>  
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>> - legal department -
>>  
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1%0D+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail
>> &source=g> 
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>> &source=g> 
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>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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>>  
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> -- 
> 
> Jonathan Matkowsky
> 
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