[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original Registration Date
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Oct 10 13:48:53 UTC 2017
Hi Paul,
I don't disagree. A domain registration RDS entry should list the data
pertaining to the current registration, not that of previous
registrations. The differentiation here is between the Creation Date as
used in todays RDS and the Original Creation data, as proposed by the
EWG. The latter would pertain to previous registrations of the same
string, not the current one and therefore would be the "odd man out".
This additional field might also open the door to a complete history of
previous registrations, complete with previous registrants of previous
domains as well as previous registrants of the current domain. I hope we
will never go there.
The Created Date should only refer to the current registry object
(domain registration), e.g. the time and date the "AddDomain" was
processed by the registry. Transfers and ownership updates obviously do
not influence this date, neither would deletions followed by a restore.
But deletions followed by a new registration would.
Volker
Am 10.10.2017 um 15:36 schrieb Paul Keating:
> Volker,
>
> You wrote below:
>
> I still think that the only date that should be included is
> the creation date of a domain name as all potential previous
> registrations of the same string refer to a different domain
> object.
>
> A domain that once existed and has been permanently deleted at
> the registry level is not the same as a domain registered when
> the string became available again, and we should not try to
> conflate both into one object.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> The problem I have is that we need to be very careful with
> terminology. As used today, Creation Date signifies the first date of
> a domain name’s CURRENT registration cycle. If a domain expires AND
> is deleted and THEN newly registered again, this new registration will
> result in a NEW CREATION DATE. A domain name that “expires” but is
> purchased during a drop auction is not deleted and thus the Creation
> Date will remain the same. This is because the registration merely
> transfers (since of course domains are intangibles and evidenced only
> by registration records).
>
> Given that this is the case I do not see any need for an "Original
> Registration Date” unless its purpose is to track whether or not a
> domain name has been registered, deleted and re-registered.
>
> If this is a semiotical issue then I believe that “Creation Date” is
> much more accurate as it references the creation of the instance of
> registration. Original Registration Date would imply that it served a
> purpose by showing the first date upon which a domain was registered,
> even if it had expired AND been deleted. I see no purpose in such
> data but am open to being convinced.
>
> Furthermore, I do not believe that registries maintain the data
> necessary to determine whether or not the domain had ever been
> registered.
>
>
> Paul
>
> From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Chuck
> <consult at cgomes.com <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM
> To: 'jonathan matkowsky' <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>>, 'Sara Bockey'
> <sbockey at godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com>>, 'Volker Greimann'
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>,
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original
> Registration Date
>
> Jonathan,
>
> What do you mean when you say RDS?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *jonathan
> matkowsky
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:24 AM
> *To:* Sara Bockey <sbockey at godaddy.com
> <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com>>; Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement for Original
> Registration Date
>
> Hi. Yes but this is the RDS.
>
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:09 AM Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> the domain object ID is indeed part of the whois:
>
> From the Whois of a .org domain -> Registry Domain ID: D104189961-LROR
>
> From the Whois of a .com domain -> Registry Domain ID: 4065057_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
>
> From the Whois of a .Saarland domain -> Registry Domain ID: 8932212620_DOMAIN-SAAR
>
> It is a unique identifier for a registration.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 10.10.2017 um 05:18 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>
> Is the Domain Object ID displayed?
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 3:34 PM Sara Bockey
> <sbockey at godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com>> wrote:
>
> I agree with Volker.
>
> Sara
>
> *sara bockey*
>
> *sr. policy manager | GoDaddy^™ *
>
> *sbockey at godaddy.com <mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com>
> 480-366-3616*
>
> *skype: sbockey*
>
> /This email message and any attachments hereto is
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> *From: *<gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf
> of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> *Date: *Monday, October 9, 2017 at 1:13 AM
> *To: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>"
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Proposed Agreement
> for Original Registration Date
>
> I still think that the only date that should be
> included is the creation date of a domain name as all
> potential previous registrations of the same string
> refer to a different domain object.
>
> A domain that once existed and has been permanently
> deleted at the registry level is not the same as a
> domain registered when the string became available
> again, and we should not try to conflate both into one
> object.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 02.10.2017 um 05:28 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>
> The point is that without it, you run the risk of
> misunderstandings of what the creation date
> implies for starters. While that could be
> mitigated arguably with disclaimers, there’s no
> personal information in indicating whether there
> are known prior registration dates and the expert
> working group recommended that original
> registration date be included. This is just more
> accurate. Plus the Whois is the most direct
> evidence without necessarily having to ask for
> documents that would include personal information.
> So this potentially reduces the need for personal
> information disclosure. If someone wants to get
> their domain back that inadvertently lapsed, there
> would be an indicator that it was previously
> registered without having to necessarily prove it.
> Plus records can more easily be forged. This
> couldn’t be.
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 12:30 PM Stephanie Perrin
> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
> Surely there are many other ways an individual
> could prove the original registration date of
> a domain, other than it being in the WHOIS?
>
> Stephanie Perrin
>
> On 2017-09-28 18:22, jonathan matkowsky wrote:
>
> There is a lot going on in the last week,
> and I am *still* playing catch up.
>
> I apologize with the religious high
> holidays at the end of last week and my
> travel right before that, I dropped the
> ball, but I want to emphasize that the
> poll that was circulated framing the issue
> as to whether there is a requirement for
> the Original Registration Date in the EWG
> Final Report is not the issue in my humble
> opinion. The issue is whether it was
> recommended. And it was. Very clearly. And
> for good reasons. Some of those were
> specified in the EWG Final Report on page
> 132, and illustrated in the annex thereto.
>
> There are many very important reasons why
> this recommendation was being made from my
> perspective. I'm not going to re-hash
> them. I am convinced that the reasons why
> the EWG as a whole made this
> recommendation would be best satisfied by
> the counter and indicator of unknown or
> yes status. To just focus on the technical
> reasons why they could have done a better
> job defining the Original Registration
> Date element as a justification to dismiss
> the *importance* of the element on the
> basis it was not required would be
> unfortunate.
>
> Domains may be registered and deleted
> throughout the day literally within
> fifteen minutes apart. Others who lose
> their domain inadvertently and then want
> to use that original registration date as
> a point of reference in domain recovery
> should not lose that opportunity. On the
> flip side, to be fair, someone who is the
> subject of a UDRP deserves the opportunity
> to point to the original registration date
> as evidence the domain was allowed to
> lapse. When valuating domain names for
> sale, it is important that there be a
> public record that there may be a cloud on
> the title. etc.
>
> The fact that it's unknown there is a
> prior existing registration is important
> information. It let's people know that the
> creation date does not mean it is the
> first time the string has ever been
> created while at the same time letting us
> know when we know for sure that there has
> been such a prior registration in the
> future when deletions are tracked. While
> technically that may be obvious to us
> here, that is not necessarily obvious to
> many who rely on Whois. So the fact it is
> set to unknown serves a very important
> purpose. Furthermore, when it is actually
> known, that is vital information to
> provide (nobody said registry operators
> have to gather historical data that is
> burdensome or that some might not even
> have). I am not convinced it is too much
> to ask registry operators to keep track of
> deletions in the future. Doing so may not
> be hard to implement and would meet the
> recommendations of the EWG. Part of the
> work we are doing here has to have
> long-term vision and not just whether it
> is helpful in the short term for our
> personal or commercial purposes at hand. A
> lot of people in future generations are
> counting on us.
>
> The particular date is not as important to
> meet the underlying objectives of the EWG
> in coming up with this recommendation. I
> would also not dismiss outright how this
> counter will eventually serve an important
> function as an indicator of severe abuse
> that is taking place behind the scenes
> that nobody has easy access to see but can
> be in the future would be more readily
> apparent from following the EWG's
> recommendation in this regard (albeit,
> interpreting their recommendation more
> liberally to satisfy the policy
> considerations and purposes they identified).
>
> All of that said, I recognize and respect
> that others may disagree on this. I would
> at least then recommend that we ensure
> that the specific ID number that must be
> collected anyway from an engineering
> perspective is required to actually be
> *displayed* to tenuously meet the
> objectives of the EWG indirectly since its
> being exposed in a protocol anyway by
> definition. While this is a lot more work
> and not as helpful to many Internet users
> as the compromised suggestion to meet
> their recommendation, at least we have
> protection assuming there are historical
> records as readily available as today and
> that people can point out the different
> object ID numbers for these strings and
> explain what that means.
>
> Okay, I'm moving on unless there is a
> group that feels based on what I've said,
> that we should at least re-visit briefly.
> I recognize that there are *many* on this
> string with a lot more experience than me
> and knowledge coming from different
> vantage points, but feel it is important
> to at least lay this out in case others
> agree, as I wasn't on the call and
> couldn't chime in, in as a timely manner
> for which I express my regrets.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 7:45 AM, Chuck
> <consult at cgomes.com
> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
>
> I want to request that any members who
> think there is value in the 'counter'
> data element to please answer Paul's
> question: " So the utility of the
> counter seems highly limited. Does it
> even
> deliver the usefulness that its
> proponents want it to?" Please share what
> you think that value is on this list
> by Monday of next week.
>
> Chuck
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]
> On Behalf Of Paul Keating
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 8:32 AM
> To: Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>; Andrew
> Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
> <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>>;
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
> Proposed Agreement for Original
> Registration
> Date
>
> And what is the intended purpose
> sought to be achieved?
>
> On 9/21/17, 5:15 PM, "Greg Aaron"
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> on
> behalf of gca at icginc.com
> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>
> >The upshot is that the counter would
> probably start at "Unknown" for
> >all existing domains.
> >* Once implemented, the feature has
> little usefulness until years in
> >the future, when some domains get
> re-registered and those strings
> >accumulate some history.
> >* But many domains get renewed year
> after year. Those wouldn't
> >accumulate counter history, and would
> be set to Unknown either forever,
> >or for long periods if they are ever
> allowed to expire and if they are
> >then re-registered. This is a
> significant portion of domains. For
> >example .COM has an renewal rate of
> around 72%.
> >
> >So the utility of the counter seems
> highly limited. Does it even
> >deliver the usefulness that its
> proponents want it to?
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> >[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]
> On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
> >Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017
> 10:49 AM
> >To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
> Proposed Agreement for Original
> >Registration Date
> >
> >On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 02:28:39PM
> +0000, Greg Aaron wrote:
> >> The alternate proposal is a simple
> marker that says whether there has
> >>been a known previous iteration of
> the domain string, having been
> >>registered with a different ROID.
> >>
> >
> >Or a counter, of course, rather than
> just the marker. From the point
> >of view of implementation in a
> database, I think these two options are
> >approximately the same, so I prefer the counter because it provides an
> >additional bit of data (that is, that
> the domain is changing -- you can
> >watch it happen).
> >
> >> And it still presents the same
> operational problem: the registry has
> >>to figure out whether a string has
> existed before. That is something
> >>registries are not designed to do. And they may not have the
> >>necessary historical records. See the notes below.
> >>
> >
> >Well, no, that's part of the point of
> the new proposal: the registry
> >_doesn't_ have to figure that out,
> because the counter can be set to
> >"unknown" (in a SQL database, you'd
> probably use NULL). To support
> >this feature, however, the registry
> would have to track deletions of
> >domain names in the future. So it
> wouldn't be free, but it also
> >wouldn't be hard to implement. (Any
> real SQL database, for instance,
> >could do this with an ON DELETE trigger.)
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >A
> >
> >--
> >Andrew Sullivan
> >ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
> <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> >_______________________________________________
> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk
> 1<https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1%0D+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1%0D+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Matkowsky
>
>
> *******************************************************************
> This message was sent from RiskIQ, and is intended only for the
> designated recipient(s). It may contain confidential or
> proprietary information and may be subject to confidentiality
> protections. If you are not a designated recipient, you may not
> review, copy or distribute this message. If you receive this in
> error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete this
> message. Thank you.
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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