[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT

Tue Oct 17 08:58:12 UTC 2017

Thanks- I meant do you know which provision of the ePrivacy Directive makes
an exception for public databases so I can take a look at why some think it
may apply to Whois?

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 1:53 AM Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
wrote:

> Sure although I doubt there is a need to waste money on a legal review as
> the below is self-evident.
>
> To collect, store (and publish, in some cases) certain information, there
> has to be a legal requirement or a legal right to do so. For example, car
> ownership legislation usually requires the registration of the owner of the
> car in a public register, but there is no requirement to register the
> actual driver. Incorporating a legal entity requires by law certain data to
> be entered into a register that may be public or not, depending on
> jurisdiction. Gun ownership in some jurisdiction requires registration of
> the gun, the owner or both in a usually non-public register. In some
> jurisdictions, criminals that have served their time will have to register
> when moving into areas where such jurisdition applies. In Europe, the
> operator of the website is required to publish certain information about
> himself in an easy-to-find section of the website. Internet service
> providers may be required by law to keep connection data of their customers
> for longer than actually needed for business practices.
>
> All these rules impact the right of private individuals to their own data,
> but this impact is permitted due to the legal basis (I am not going into
> the many cases where legal requirements have been overturned in court as
> the impact on the rights was unjustified or overly deep).
>
> No such legal requirement exists for domain ownership. There are private
> policies, agreements between parties, but none of these are actually
> allowed to supersede legal requirements for the protection of such data. In
> other words, these do not create an exception to the legal requirements but
> have to work within their limits.
>
> So, concluding, whatever we discuss, it cannot violate data privacy
> rights. If it did, the policy would be unenforceable or even void. Let's
> not fool ourselves into believing such legal rights can be waived, as the
> legal protections against that are rather strong. For example, while a data
> subject can provide consent, the GDPR puts very significant constraints on
> this, how it can be obtained, how it can be revoked and what the
> consequences of either are. For example, we cannot require consent as a
> contractual condition and we cannot revoke the registration if consent is
> revoked as that would violate the requirement that consent must be "freely
> given".
>
> Volker
>
> Am 17.10.2017 um 03:09 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>
> I respect that may be the case but can we get some unbiased analysis in
> this regard similar to what we’ve done recently? I’m not saying I’m any
> less biased here than you are. I’m just trying to gather the relevant
> facts. Can you elaborate on below please?
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:07 AM Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>
>> We will also have to differentiate etween public directories that exist
>> due to a legislatory requirement and those that have come into being
>> without any such justification due to "reasons".
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 15.10.2017 um 09:42 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>
>> Hi, Ayden. I am catching up. The thing I don't get is that we need to
>> look at whether there is an exception made for public directories in the
>> ePrivacy Directive. If there is such an exception, and it is also the case
>> that GDPR doesn't supersede the ePrivacy Directive, than I am having
>> difficulty reconciling that. I think we should ask ICANN staff if they have
>> looked into this issue or come across it--so we have taken this into
>> consideration without having to guess.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>
>>> It might indeed be a Regulation if adopted, but this is just a proposal
>>> for now. Paragraph 30 of the European Commission's proposed text states,
>>> "The right to privacy and to protection of the personal data of a natural
>>> person requires that end-users that are natural persons are asked for
>>> consent before their personal data are included in a directory. The
>>> legitimate interest of legal entities requires that end-users that are
>>> legal entities have the right to object to the data related to them being
>>> included in a directory."
>>>
>>> I do not think it is appropriate for us as a Working Group to try to
>>> predict what the outcome will be here; will the proposed text change [this
>>> clause hasn't changed over the past 12 months...], will it be adopted at
>>> all? I think it will be more productive if we stick with what is
>>> definitive; that GDPR has been adopted and enforcement begins in May 2018,
>>> and yes, the e-Privacy Directive from 2002 (and again, not a Regulation)
>>> has been transposed into national laws in EU member states.
>>>
>>> I think the best thing we can do is rely on the legal advice that was
>>> commissioned for us, and tailored to respond to the questions that we as a
>>> working group sought answers to. Among them, I draw your attention to the
>>> answer to question 9. I think the final paragraph, which discusses
>>> proportionality in the context of publicly accessible databases, is very
>>> relevant when you cite the e-Privacy Directive's references to subscriber
>>> directories. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>> linkedin.com/in/ferdeline <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>> Local Time: 13 October 2017 9:23 PM
>>> UTC Time: 13 October 2017 20:23
>>> From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>> To: Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>, Stephanie Perrin <
>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>, gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org, theo
>>> geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl>
>>>
>>> I think the proposed amendment to the eprivacy directive in effect is
>>> being debated as a regulation
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.informationpolicycentre.com/uploads/5/7/1/0/57104281/cipl_comments_on_the_proposal_for_an_eprivacy_regulation_final_draft_11_september_2017.pdf
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Please remember that there is a difference between a Regulation (which
>>>> GDPR is) and a Directive (which is what e-Privacy is). I think this
>>>> distinction is important in this conversation. Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:59 pm, jonathan matkowsky <
>>>> jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So I am trying to piece this all together. It seems like there may be a
>>>> possibility that the eprivacy directive will eventually be updated by the
>>>> regulation but that there is still intense debates over the regulation,
>>>> that GDPR doesn’t trump the directive itself, and that there may be
>>>> exceptions in the directive for a public database when GDPR comes into
>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>> If the above is true than GDPR may not actually cover the public Whois
>>>> when it comes into effect unless and until the regulation comes into effect
>>>> (which is still being debated and likely won’t be resolved by the time GDPR
>>>> comes into effect) reconciling inconsistencies between GDPR and the
>>>> applicable privacy directive that has some kind of exception for a public
>>>> directory?
>>>>
>>>> Again, it’s imperative we get clarity around this issue to do our work
>>>> properly.
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:29 AM theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.privacytrust.com/guidance/gdpr-vs-eprivacy-regulation.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Eprivacy seems to be delayed though
>>>>>
>>>>> https://iapp.org/news/a/libe-eprivacy-vote-delayed-juri-itre-and-edps-weigh-in/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Theo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13-10-2017 20:22, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe the Art 29 group has commented on this matter, please check
>>>>> their website for the relevant documents, as I don't believe we have
>>>>> included them in our document respository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-13 14:16, Ayden Férdeline wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>
>>>>> the Privacy Directive, as I understand it is not superseded by GDPR
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I presume you are referring to the European Union's e-Privacy
>>>>> Directive (2002/58/EC). If so, from what I understand it is currently being
>>>>> updated so to be consistent with the GDPR. As of last month the proposed
>>>>> revisions were with the Council of the European Union. I'm not sure what
>>>>> movement there has been since then.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>> linkedin.com/in/ferdeline <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>>>> Local Time: 13 October 2017 1:51 PM
>>>>> UTC Time: 13 October 2017 12:51
>>>>> From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>> To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com> <consult at cgomes.com>,
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Chuck, I don’t understand how anyone can share government perspective,
>>>>> and not represent a group in doing so.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to know whether leadership team has decided to conduct a
>>>>> DPIA, and if so, whether you are using the UK’s guide. I would think while
>>>>> it makes sense to be looking at the purposes of collection, what is primary
>>>>> and secondary cannot be the focus because that presupposes knowing who the
>>>>> controller is. We have not yet decided that as a working group. The memo
>>>>> did not necessarily take into account the role of offering accreditation
>>>>> services and ICANN’s mission.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it appears whether it’s primary or secondary doesn’t matter for
>>>>> purposes of defining purposes of collecting each data element.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are not defining the purposes of collecting Whois data but the data
>>>>> elements of the next generation of Whois. That’s what I meant the other day
>>>>> regarding RDS.
>>>>>
>>>>> To do that, we are not limited to the data elements that currently
>>>>> exist as when we go through this exercise to fulfill ICANN’s mission from
>>>>> ICANN’s perspective including all those involved in cybersecurity, or to
>>>>> offer accredited registration services. The primary purpose of accredited
>>>>> services is to fulfill the mission, and to provide that staple of a service
>>>>> to those that register names with an accredited registrar. It seems we need
>>>>> to carefully consider not only Spec 3 to the 2013 RAA but also Paragraph 14
>>>>> to the 2017 global amendment to the registry agreement which says unique
>>>>> DNS records may be supportable in the RDS if RDAP supports it. We therefore
>>>>> need to know what RDAP can support, and at the very least need to consider
>>>>> all elements from RFC 7485. This is not a simple exercise, and will take
>>>>> **significant** time.
>>>>>
>>>>> As we undertake this, we must know from WS law firm what role the
>>>>> public directory service plays in the Privacy Directive, as I understand it
>>>>> is not superseded by GDPR, and Whois is a public directory. This is
>>>>> critical analysis we are possibly missing. Can you ask them to address this
>>>>> ASAP please?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:35 AM Chuck <consult at cgomes.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We have 34 volunteers at present; it would help a lot if we could get
>>>>>> a lot more so that teams will not have to cover more than one of the nine
>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks much to the 34 of you who have volunteered.  I hope many more
>>>>>> will complete the poll and volunteer in the remaining 6 or so hours of the
>>>>>> poll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are particularly low for the government perspective.  Remember,
>>>>>> team members are not being asked to represent any group but rather to share
>>>>>> their understanding of the perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Lisa Phifer
>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:19 AM
>>>>>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>> *Subject:* [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] IMPORTANT: Invitation for Poll from 10
>>>>>> October Meeting
>>>>>> *Importance:* High
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In follow-up to this week’s WG meeting, *all RDS PDP WG Members* are
>>>>>> encouraged to participate in the following poll:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5LXJRF3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Responses should be submitted through the above URL. For offline
>>>>>> reference, a PDF of poll questions can also be found at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66086772/Poll-from-10OctoberCall.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *This poll will close at COB Wednesday 11 October.  Expressions of
>>>>>> interest gathered through this poll will be used form drafting teams.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note that you *must be a WG Member* to participate in polls.
>>>>>> If you are a WG Observer wishing to participate in polls, you must first
>>>>>> contact gnso-secs at icann.org to upgrade to WG Member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisa
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>
>>>>> ****************************** ****************************** *******
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing listgnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing listgnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>
>>>> ************************************************************ *******
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>
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>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 1
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>>
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>
> --
> Jonathan Matkowsky
>
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> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1%0D+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g>
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> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
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