[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT

Stephanie Perrin stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Tue Oct 17 13:12:23 UTC 2017


Thank you Volker, well said.  While these same requirements applied when 
we were dealing with a Directive on data protection instantiated in 
national laws, we will soon have a new Regulation with substantial 
penalties that makes non-compliance no longer feasible for ICANN, in my 
view.

Stephanie Perrin


On 2017-10-17 04:53, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
> Sure although I doubt there is a need to waste money on a legal review 
> as the below is self-evident.
>
> To collect, store (and publish, in some cases) certain information, 
> there has to be a legal requirement or a legal right to do so. For 
> example, car ownership legislation usually requires the registration 
> of the owner of the car in a public register, but there is no 
> requirement to register the actual driver. Incorporating a legal 
> entity requires by law certain data to be entered into a register that 
> may be public or not, depending on jurisdiction. Gun ownership in some 
> jurisdiction requires registration of the gun, the owner or both in a 
> usually non-public register. In some jurisdictions, criminals that 
> have served their time will have to register when moving into areas 
> where such jurisdition applies. In Europe, the operator of the website 
> is required to publish certain information about himself in an 
> easy-to-find section of the website. Internet service providers may be 
> required by law to keep connection data of their customers for longer 
> than actually needed for business practices.
>
> All these rules impact the right of private individuals to their own 
> data, but this impact is permitted due to the legal basis (I am not 
> going into the many cases where legal requirements have been 
> overturned in court as the impact on the rights was unjustified or 
> overly deep).
>
> No such legal requirement exists for domain ownership. There are 
> private policies, agreements between parties, but none of these are 
> actually allowed to supersede legal requirements for the protection of 
> such data. In other words, these do not create an exception to the 
> legal requirements but have to work within their limits.
>
> So, concluding, whatever we discuss, it cannot violate data privacy 
> rights. If it did, the policy would be unenforceable or even void. 
> Let's not fool ourselves into believing such legal rights can be 
> waived, as the legal protections against that are rather strong. For 
> example, while a data subject can provide consent, the GDPR puts very 
> significant constraints on this, how it can be obtained, how it can be 
> revoked and what the consequences of either are. For example, we 
> cannot require consent as a contractual condition and we cannot revoke 
> the registration if consent is revoked as that would violate the 
> requirement that consent must be "freely given".
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 17.10.2017 um 03:09 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>> I respect that may be the case but can we get some unbiased analysis 
>> in this regard similar to what we’ve done recently? I’m not saying 
>> I’m any less biased here than you are. I’m just trying to gather the 
>> relevant facts. Can you elaborate on below please?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:07 AM Volker Greimann 
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     We will also have to differentiate etween public directories that
>>     exist due to a legislatory requirement and those that have come
>>     into being without any such justification due to "reasons".
>>
>>     Best,
>>
>>     Volker
>>
>>
>>     Am 15.10.2017 um 09:42 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>>     Hi, Ayden. I am catching up. The thing I don't get is that we
>>>     need to look at whether there is an exception made for public
>>>     directories in the ePrivacy Directive. If there is such an
>>>     exception, and it is also the case that GDPR doesn't supersede
>>>     the ePrivacy Directive, than I am having difficulty reconciling
>>>     that. I think we should ask ICANN staff if they have looked into
>>>     this issue or come across it--so we have taken this into
>>>     consideration without having to guess.
>>>
>>>     On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Ayden Férdeline
>>>     <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi Jonathan,
>>>
>>>         It might indeed be a Regulation if adopted, but this is just
>>>         a proposal for now. Paragraph 30 of the European
>>>         Commission's proposed text states, "The right to privacy and
>>>         to protection of the personal data of a natural person
>>>         requires that end-users that are natural persons are asked
>>>         for consent before their personal data are included in a
>>>         directory. The legitimate interest of legal entities
>>>         requires that end-users that are legal entities have the
>>>         right to object to the data related to them being included
>>>         in a directory."
>>>
>>>         I do not think it is appropriate for us as a Working Group
>>>         to try to predict what the outcome will be here; will the
>>>         proposed text change [this clause hasn't changed over the
>>>         past 12 months...], will it be adopted at all? I think it
>>>         will be more productive if we stick with what is definitive;
>>>         that GDPR has been adopted and enforcement begins in May
>>>         2018, and yes, the e-Privacy Directive from 2002 (and again,
>>>         not a Regulation) has been transposed into national laws in
>>>         EU member states.
>>>
>>>         I think the best thing we can do is rely on the legal advice
>>>         that was commissioned for us, and tailored to respond to the
>>>         questions that we as a working group sought answers to.
>>>         Among them, I draw your attention to the answer to question
>>>         9. I think the final paragraph, which discusses
>>>         proportionality in the context of publicly accessible
>>>         databases, is very relevant when you cite the e-Privacy
>>>         Directive's references to subscriber directories. Thanks.
>>>
>>>         Best wishes,
>>>
>>>         Ayden Férdeline
>>>         linkedin.com/in/ferdeline <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>
>>>
>>>>         -------- Original Message --------
>>>>         Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>>>         Local Time: 13 October 2017 9:23 PM
>>>>         UTC Time: 13 October 2017 20:23
>>>>         From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>         <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>
>>>>         To: Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com
>>>>         <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>, Stephanie Perrin
>>>>         <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
>>>>         <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>,
>>>>         gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>         <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>, theo geurts
>>>>         <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>>
>>>>
>>>>         I think the proposed amendment to the eprivacy directive in
>>>>         effect is being debated as a regulation
>>>>
>>>>         http://www.informationpolicycentre.com/uploads/5/7/1/0/57104281/cipl_comments_on_the_proposal_for_an_eprivacy_regulation_final_draft_11_september_2017.pdf
>>>>
>>>>         On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Ayden Férdeline
>>>>         <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             Hi,
>>>>
>>>>             Please remember that there is a difference between a
>>>>             Regulation (which GDPR is) and a Directive (which is
>>>>             what e-Privacy is). I think this distinction is
>>>>             important in this conversation. Thanks
>>>>
>>>>             Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>>             Ayden Férdeline
>>>>             Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:59 pm, jonathan matkowsky
>>>>             <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>             <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>> wrote:
>>>>>             So I am trying to piece this all together. It seems
>>>>>             like there may be a possibility that the eprivacy
>>>>>             directive will eventually be updated by the regulation
>>>>>             but that there is still intense debates over the
>>>>>             regulation, that GDPR doesn’t trump the directive
>>>>>             itself, and that there may be exceptions in the
>>>>>             directive for a public database when GDPR comes into
>>>>>             effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>             If the above is true than GDPR may not actually cover
>>>>>             the public Whois when it comes into effect unless and
>>>>>             until the regulation comes into effect (which is still
>>>>>             being debated and likely won’t be resolved by the time
>>>>>             GDPR comes into effect) reconciling inconsistencies
>>>>>             between GDPR and the applicable privacy directive that
>>>>>             has some kind of exception for a public directory?
>>>>>
>>>>>             Again, it’s imperative we get clarity around this
>>>>>             issue to do our work properly.
>>>>>             Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>             On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:29 AM theo geurts
>>>>>             <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 https://www.privacytrust.com/guidance/gdpr-vs-eprivacy-regulation.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Eprivacy seems to be delayed though
>>>>>                 https://iapp.org/news/a/libe-eprivacy-vote-delayed-juri-itre-and-edps-weigh-in/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Theo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 On 13-10-2017 20:22, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 I believe the Art 29 group has commented on this
>>>>>>                 matter, please check their website for the
>>>>>>                 relevant documents, as I don't believe we have
>>>>>>                 included them in our document respository.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 On 2017-10-13 14:16, Ayden Férdeline wrote:
>>>>>>>                 Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 the Privacy Directive, as I understand it is
>>>>>>>>                 not superseded by GDPR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 I presume you are referring to the European
>>>>>>>                 Union's e-Privacy Directive (2002/58/EC). If so,
>>>>>>>                 from what I understand it is currently being
>>>>>>>                 updated so to be consistent with the GDPR. As of
>>>>>>>                 last month the proposed revisions were with the
>>>>>>>                 Council of the European Union. I'm not sure what
>>>>>>>                 movement there has been since then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 Ayden Férdeline
>>>>>>>                 linkedin.com/in/ferdeline
>>>>>>>                 <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>                 Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>>>>>>>                 Local Time: 13 October 2017 1:51 PM
>>>>>>>>                 UTC Time: 13 October 2017 12:51
>>>>>>>>                 From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>
>>>>>>>>                 To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>,
>>>>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 Chuck, I don’t understand how anyone can share
>>>>>>>>                 government perspective, and not represent a
>>>>>>>>                 group in doing so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 I wanted to know whether leadership team has
>>>>>>>>                 decided to conduct a DPIA, and if so, whether
>>>>>>>>                 you are using the UK’s guide. I would think
>>>>>>>>                 while it makes sense to be looking at the
>>>>>>>>                 purposes of collection, what is primary and
>>>>>>>>                 secondary cannot be the focus because that
>>>>>>>>                 presupposes knowing who the controller is. We
>>>>>>>>                 have not yet decided that as a working group.
>>>>>>>>                 The memo did not necessarily take into account
>>>>>>>>                 the role of offering accreditation services and
>>>>>>>>                 ICANN’s mission.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 But it appears whether it’s primary or
>>>>>>>>                 secondary doesn’t matter for purposes of
>>>>>>>>                 defining purposes of collecting each data element.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 We are not defining the purposes of collecting
>>>>>>>>                 Whois data but the data elements of the next
>>>>>>>>                 generation of Whois. That’s what I meant the
>>>>>>>>                 other day regarding RDS.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 To do that, we are not limited to the data
>>>>>>>>                 elements that currently exist as when we go
>>>>>>>>                 through this exercise to fulfill ICANN’s
>>>>>>>>                 mission from ICANN’s perspective including all
>>>>>>>>                 those involved in cybersecurity, or to offer
>>>>>>>>                 accredited registration services. The primary
>>>>>>>>                 purpose of accredited services is to fulfill
>>>>>>>>                 the mission, and to provide that staple of a
>>>>>>>>                 service to those that register names with an
>>>>>>>>                 accredited registrar. It seems we need to
>>>>>>>>                 carefully consider not only Spec 3 to the 2013
>>>>>>>>                 RAA but also Paragraph 14 to the 2017 global
>>>>>>>>                 amendment to the registry agreement which says
>>>>>>>>                 unique DNS records may be supportable in the
>>>>>>>>                 RDS if RDAP supports it. We therefore need to
>>>>>>>>                 know what RDAP can support, and at the very
>>>>>>>>                 least need to consider all elements from RFC
>>>>>>>>                 7485. This is not a simple exercise, and will
>>>>>>>>                 take **significant** time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 As we undertake this, we must know from WS law
>>>>>>>>                 firm what role the public directory service
>>>>>>>>                 plays in the Privacy Directive, as I understand
>>>>>>>>                 it is not superseded by GDPR, and Whois is a
>>>>>>>>                 public directory. This is critical analysis we
>>>>>>>>                 are possibly missing. Can you ask them to
>>>>>>>>                 address this ASAP please?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 Thanks
>>>>>>>>                 Jonathan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:35 AM Chuck
>>>>>>>>                 <consult at cgomes.com
>>>>>>>>                 <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     We have 34 volunteers at present; it would
>>>>>>>>                     help a lot if we could get a lot more so
>>>>>>>>                     that teams will not have to cover more than
>>>>>>>>                     one of the nine purposes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Thanks much to the 34 of you who have
>>>>>>>>                     volunteered. I hope many more will complete
>>>>>>>>                     the poll and volunteer in the remaining 6
>>>>>>>>                     or so hours of the poll.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     We are particularly low for the government
>>>>>>>>                     perspective. Remember, team members are not
>>>>>>>>                     being asked to represent any group but
>>>>>>>>                     rather to share their understanding of the
>>>>>>>>                     perspective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Chuck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>                     [mailto: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]
>>>>>>>>                     *On Behalf Of *Lisa Phifer
>>>>>>>>                     *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:19 AM
>>>>>>>>                     *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>                     *Subject:* [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] IMPORTANT:
>>>>>>>>                     Invitation for Poll from 10 October Meeting
>>>>>>>>                     *Importance:* High
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     In follow-up to this week’s WG meeting,
>>>>>>>>                     *all RDS PDP WG Members* are encouraged to
>>>>>>>>                     participate in the following poll:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5LXJRF3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Responses should be submitted through the
>>>>>>>>                     above URL. For offline reference, a PDF of
>>>>>>>>                     poll questions can also be found at:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66086772/Poll-from-10OctoberCall.pdf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     *This poll will close at COB Wednesday 11
>>>>>>>>                     October. Expressions of interest gathered
>>>>>>>>                     through this poll will be used form
>>>>>>>>                     drafting teams.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Please note that you _must be a WG Member_
>>>>>>>>                     to participate in polls. If you are a WG
>>>>>>>>                     Observer wishing to participate in polls,
>>>>>>>>                     you must first contact gnso-secs at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org> to upgrade to
>>>>>>>>                     WG Member.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     Lisa
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                     gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>>                     gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>                     <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>                     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 -- 
>>>>>>>>                 Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                 ******************************
>>>>>>>>                 ****************************** *******
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>                 <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>                 https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>                 <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>                 https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>                 gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>                 <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>                 https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>
>>>>>             -- 
>>>>>             Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>
>>>>>             ************************************************************
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>>>>
>>>>         -- 
>>>>         Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>
>>>>         *******************************************************************
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>>
>>     -- 
>>     Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>>     Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>>     Volker A. Greimann
>>     - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>>     Key-Systems GmbH
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>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>
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