[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
Jeremy Malcolm
jmalcolm at eff.org
Tue Oct 17 16:57:30 UTC 2017
That's not such a facetious remark, actually. In the current NAFTA
negotiations, the U.S. delegation is proposing something like that. The
text, based on similar text from the TPP, would require each country to
provide "online public access to a reliable and accurate database of
contact information concerning domain name registrants." Currently this
only applies to ccTLDs but, as implemented in national law, it could as
easily cover all registries and registrars within the jurisdictional
reach of the government.
On 17/10/17 9:25 am, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>
> So what you're saying is that if there were a legal requirement to
> request and disseminate that data, all this is moot?
>
> I can fix that, will send a note to Congress now.
>
>
> On 10/17/2017 03:53 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>> Sure although I doubt there is a need to waste money on a legal
>> review as the below is self-evident.
>>
>> To collect, store (and publish, in some cases) certain information,
>> there has to be a legal requirement or a legal right to do so. For
>> example, car ownership legislation usually requires the registration
>> of the owner of the car in a public register, but there is no
>> requirement to register the actual driver. Incorporating a legal
>> entity requires by law certain data to be entered into a register
>> that may be public or not, depending on jurisdiction. Gun ownership
>> in some jurisdiction requires registration of the gun, the owner or
>> both in a usually non-public register. In some jurisdictions,
>> criminals that have served their time will have to register when
>> moving into areas where such jurisdition applies. In Europe, the
>> operator of the website is required to publish certain information
>> about himself in an easy-to-find section of the website. Internet
>> service providers may be required by law to keep connection data of
>> their customers for longer than actually needed for business practices.
>>
>> All these rules impact the right of private individuals to their own
>> data, but this impact is permitted due to the legal basis (I am not
>> going into the many cases where legal requirements have been
>> overturned in court as the impact on the rights was unjustified or
>> overly deep).
>>
>> No such legal requirement exists for domain ownership. There are
>> private policies, agreements between parties, but none of these are
>> actually allowed to supersede legal requirements for the protection
>> of such data. In other words, these do not create an exception to the
>> legal requirements but have to work within their limits.
>>
>> So, concluding, whatever we discuss, it cannot violate data privacy
>> rights. If it did, the policy would be unenforceable or even void.
>> Let's not fool ourselves into believing such legal rights can be
>> waived, as the legal protections against that are rather strong. For
>> example, while a data subject can provide consent, the GDPR puts very
>> significant constraints on this, how it can be obtained, how it can
>> be revoked and what the consequences of either are. For example, we
>> cannot require consent as a contractual condition and we cannot
>> revoke the registration if consent is revoked as that would violate
>> the requirement that consent must be "freely given".
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> Am 17.10.2017 um 03:09 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>> I respect that may be the case but can we get some unbiased analysis
>>> in this regard similar to what we’ve done recently? I’m not saying
>>> I’m any less biased here than you are. I’m just trying to gather the
>>> relevant facts. Can you elaborate on below please?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:07 AM Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> We will also have to differentiate etween public directories
>>> that exist due to a legislatory requirement and those that have
>>> come into being without any such justification due to "reasons".
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 15.10.2017 um 09:42 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>>> Hi, Ayden. I am catching up. The thing I don't get is that we
>>>> need to look at whether there is an exception made for public
>>>> directories in the ePrivacy Directive. If there is such an
>>>> exception, and it is also the case that GDPR doesn't supersede
>>>> the ePrivacy Directive, than I am having difficulty reconciling
>>>> that. I think we should ask ICANN staff if they have looked
>>>> into this issue or come across it--so we have taken this into
>>>> consideration without having to guess.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Ayden Férdeline
>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>
>>>> It might indeed be a Regulation if adopted, but this is
>>>> just a proposal for now. Paragraph 30 of the European
>>>> Commission's proposed text states, "The right to privacy
>>>> and to protection of the personal data of a natural person
>>>> requires that end-users that are natural persons are asked
>>>> for consent before their personal data are included in a
>>>> directory. The legitimate interest of legal entities
>>>> requires that end-users that are legal entities have the
>>>> right to object to the data related to them being included
>>>> in a directory."
>>>>
>>>> I do not think it is appropriate for us as a Working Group
>>>> to try to predict what the outcome will be here; will the
>>>> proposed text change [this clause hasn't changed over the
>>>> past 12 months...], will it be adopted at all? I think it
>>>> will be more productive if we stick with what is
>>>> definitive; that GDPR has been adopted and enforcement
>>>> begins in May 2018, and yes, the e-Privacy Directive from
>>>> 2002 (and again, not a Regulation) has been transposed into
>>>> national laws in EU member states.
>>>>
>>>> I think the best thing we can do is rely on the legal
>>>> advice that was commissioned for us, and tailored to
>>>> respond to the questions that we as a working group sought
>>>> answers to. Among them, I draw your attention to the answer
>>>> to question 9. I think the final paragraph, which discusses
>>>> proportionality in the context of publicly accessible
>>>> databases, is very relevant when you cite the e-Privacy
>>>> Directive's references to subscriber directories. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>> linkedin.com/in/ferdeline
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>>>> Local Time: 13 October 2017 9:23 PM
>>>>> UTC Time: 13 October 2017 20:23
>>>>> From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>
>>>>> To: Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com
>>>>> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>, Stephanie Perrin
>>>>> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
>>>>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>,
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>, theo geurts
>>>>> <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the proposed amendment to the eprivacy directive
>>>>> in effect is being debated as a regulation
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.informationpolicycentre.com/uploads/5/7/1/0/57104281/cipl_comments_on_the_proposal_for_an_eprivacy_regulation_final_draft_11_september_2017.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Ayden Férdeline
>>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please remember that there is a difference between a
>>>>> Regulation (which GDPR is) and a Directive (which is
>>>>> what e-Privacy is). I think this distinction is
>>>>> important in this conversation. Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:59 pm, jonathan matkowsky
>>>>> <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> So I am trying to piece this all together. It seems
>>>>>> like there may be a possibility that the eprivacy
>>>>>> directive will eventually be updated by the
>>>>>> regulation but that there is still intense debates
>>>>>> over the regulation, that GDPR doesn’t trump the
>>>>>> directive itself, and that there may be exceptions in
>>>>>> the directive for a public database when GDPR comes
>>>>>> into effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the above is true than GDPR may not actually cover
>>>>>> the public Whois when it comes into effect unless and
>>>>>> until the regulation comes into effect (which is
>>>>>> still being debated and likely won’t be resolved by
>>>>>> the time GDPR comes into effect) reconciling
>>>>>> inconsistencies between GDPR and the applicable
>>>>>> privacy directive that has some kind of exception for
>>>>>> a public directory?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, it’s imperative we get clarity around this
>>>>>> issue to do our work properly.
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:29 AM theo geurts
>>>>>> <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.privacytrust.com/guidance/gdpr-vs-eprivacy-regulation.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eprivacy seems to be delayed though
>>>>>> https://iapp.org/news/a/libe-eprivacy-vote-delayed-juri-itre-and-edps-weigh-in/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Theo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13-10-2017 20:22, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the Art 29 group has commented on this
>>>>>>> matter, please check their website for the
>>>>>>> relevant documents, as I don't believe we have
>>>>>>> included them in our document respository.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2017-10-13 14:16, Ayden Férdeline wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the Privacy Directive, as I understand it is
>>>>>>>>> not superseded by GDPR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I presume you are referring to the European
>>>>>>>> Union's e-Privacy Directive (2002/58/EC). If
>>>>>>>> so, from what I understand it is currently
>>>>>>>> being updated so to be consistent with the
>>>>>>>> GDPR. As of last month the proposed revisions
>>>>>>>> were with the Council of the European Union.
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure what movement there has been since
>>>>>>>> then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>>>>> linkedin.com/in/ferdeline
>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdeline>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: IMPORTANT
>>>>>>>>> Local Time: 13 October 2017 1:51 PM
>>>>>>>>> UTC Time: 13 October 2017 12:51
>>>>>>>>> From: jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>,
>>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chuck, I don’t understand how anyone can share
>>>>>>>>> government perspective, and not represent a
>>>>>>>>> group in doing so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know whether leadership team has
>>>>>>>>> decided to conduct a DPIA, and if so, whether
>>>>>>>>> you are using the UK’s guide. I would think
>>>>>>>>> while it makes sense to be looking at the
>>>>>>>>> purposes of collection, what is primary and
>>>>>>>>> secondary cannot be the focus because that
>>>>>>>>> presupposes knowing who the controller is. We
>>>>>>>>> have not yet decided that as a working group.
>>>>>>>>> The memo did not necessarily take into account
>>>>>>>>> the role of offering accreditation services
>>>>>>>>> and ICANN’s mission.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But it appears whether it’s primary or
>>>>>>>>> secondary doesn’t matter for purposes of
>>>>>>>>> defining purposes of collecting each data
>>>>>>>>> element.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are not defining the purposes of collecting
>>>>>>>>> Whois data but the data elements of the next
>>>>>>>>> generation of Whois. That’s what I meant the
>>>>>>>>> other day regarding RDS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To do that, we are not limited to the data
>>>>>>>>> elements that currently exist as when we go
>>>>>>>>> through this exercise to fulfill ICANN’s
>>>>>>>>> mission from ICANN’s perspective including all
>>>>>>>>> those involved in cybersecurity, or to offer
>>>>>>>>> accredited registration services. The primary
>>>>>>>>> purpose of accredited services is to fulfill
>>>>>>>>> the mission, and to provide that staple of a
>>>>>>>>> service to those that register names with an
>>>>>>>>> accredited registrar. It seems we need to
>>>>>>>>> carefully consider not only Spec 3 to the 2013
>>>>>>>>> RAA but also Paragraph 14 to the 2017 global
>>>>>>>>> amendment to the registry agreement which says
>>>>>>>>> unique DNS records may be supportable in the
>>>>>>>>> RDS if RDAP supports it. We therefore need to
>>>>>>>>> know what RDAP can support, and at the very
>>>>>>>>> least need to consider all elements from RFC
>>>>>>>>> 7485. This is not a simple exercise, and will
>>>>>>>>> take **significant** time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As we undertake this, we must know from WS law
>>>>>>>>> firm what role the public directory service
>>>>>>>>> plays in the Privacy Directive, as I
>>>>>>>>> understand it is not superseded by GDPR, and
>>>>>>>>> Whois is a public directory. This is critical
>>>>>>>>> analysis we are possibly missing. Can you ask
>>>>>>>>> them to address this ASAP please?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:35 AM Chuck
>>>>>>>>> <consult at cgomes.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have 34 volunteers at present; it would
>>>>>>>>> help a lot if we could get a lot more so
>>>>>>>>> that teams will not have to cover more
>>>>>>>>> than one of the nine purposes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks much to the 34 of you who have
>>>>>>>>> volunteered. I hope many more will
>>>>>>>>> complete the poll and volunteer in the
>>>>>>>>> remaining 6 or so hours of the poll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are particularly low for the government
>>>>>>>>> perspective. Remember, team members are
>>>>>>>>> not being asked to represent any group but
>>>>>>>>> rather to share their understanding of the
>>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>> [mailto: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]
>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Lisa Phifer
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 10:19 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] IMPORTANT:
>>>>>>>>> Invitation for Poll from 10 October Meeting
>>>>>>>>> *Importance:* High
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In follow-up to this week’s WG meeting,
>>>>>>>>> *all RDS PDP WG Members* are encouraged to
>>>>>>>>> participate in the following poll:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5LXJRF3
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Responses should be submitted through the
>>>>>>>>> above URL. For offline reference, a PDF of
>>>>>>>>> poll questions can also be found at:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66086772/Poll-from-10OctoberCall.pdf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *This poll will close at COB Wednesday 11
>>>>>>>>> October. Expressions of interest gathered
>>>>>>>>> through this poll will be used form
>>>>>>>>> drafting teams.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please note that you _must be a WG Member_
>>>>>>>>> to participate in polls. If you are a WG
>>>>>>>>> Observer wishing to participate in polls,
>>>>>>>>> you must first contact gnso-secs at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org> to upgrade to
>>>>>>>>> WG Member.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lisa
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ******************************
>>>>>>>>> ****************************** *******
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ******************************
>>>>>>>>> ****************************** *******
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ************************************************************
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Matkowsky
>>>>>
>>>>> *******************************************************************
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>>>>
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>>> --
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
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--
Jeremy Malcolm
Senior Global Policy Analyst
Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://eff.org
jmalcolm at eff.org
Tel: 415.436.9333 ext 161
:: Defending Your Rights in the Digital World ::
Public key: https://www.eff.org/files/2016/11/27/key_jmalcolm.txt
PGP fingerprint: 75D2 4C0D 35EA EA2F 8CA8 8F79 4911 EC4A EDDF 1122
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