[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

Tue Oct 24 21:13:35 UTC 2017

Agree with Paul.  I asked that this thread end.  Why is it still going?

Chuck

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Paul Keating
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:56 AM
To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>; Dotzero
<dotzero at gmail.com>; theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl>
Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

HEY!

Stop this crap.

Lets get back to work and stop tossing silly word bombs.

Paul

From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> > on behalf of Volker Greimann
<vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> >
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 4:14 PM
To: Dotzero <dotzero at gmail.com <mailto:dotzero at gmail.com> >, theo geurts
<gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl> >
Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

You are describing the series of tubes, right?

But seriously, it does not help to accuse each other of ignorance. 

It is one thing to block trafic based on concrete and objective criteria and
another to do the same out of malice or based on gut feelings. The former is
legitimate, the latter can in some jurisdictions and circumstances be cause
for claims for damages due to illegal interferance with legitimate
businesses. Of course, private businesses can select what they want to
filter or not, but there are also more open operations out there that use
some questionable methods...

Volker

Am 24.10.2017 um 15:52 schrieb Dotzero:

Theo,

You clearly don't understand the nature of the Internet - It is a network of
networks. Some are public and some are private. Nobody is obliged to accept
packets from anyone. I do blocking of traffic on a daily basis. It is
normally at a very granular level based on malicious network traffic.
Sometimes it is based on IP Address or ASN and sometimes it is based on
domain. Sometimes we block activity based on email address. Sometimes it is
based on first hand observation of activity and sometimes it is based on 3rd
party information.

There are all sorts of lists and inputs available that people/organizations
use for all sorts of decisions. Your packets are not entitled to "due
process" on someone else's private network.

For example, some networks block traffic from Russia based on the fact that
they have no legitimate traffic from that country and a high percentage of
malicious traffic originates from there. You can get a list of all the ASNs
associated with Russia. Or perhaps those networks don't like the fact that
Russia invaded Crimea.

One would hope that someone wouldn't block simply on the basis of a blog
article, but if they choose to, why is that any of your business? Their
decision is based on the lack of visibility into data points which they have
learned are extremely useful in combating abuse. Lack of those data points
may make their networks, their organization and (other) users at risk.

Michael Hammer

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 9:30 AM, theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl
<mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl> > wrote:

.Amsterdam been offering free privacy on a Registry level since 2016. 

It would be strange they now get added to blocklists or RPZ's due to a blog
article. If this is how these blocklists work than they should be banned and
made illegal as there is no real due process. 

Theo 

On 24-10-2017 15:24, Dotzero wrote:

I don't think that is the reaction John was thinking of Volker. 

One reaction (proposal that has actually been made this morning) to the
going dark steps taken by Mijndomein is to add FRLregistry and dotAmsterdam
to block lists or RPZ. I don't know whether this proposal will gain traction
or not. Other potential reactions might include blocking domains registered
through particular registrars. There is certainly a potential for
balkanization of the Internet from these sorts of actions.

Personally I'm taking a wait and see approach before deciding what to
propose internally within my organization for traffic originating from TLDs
or registrars who have gone dark. 

Michael Hammer

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 7:00 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> > wrote:

True. Legal Requirement (Action) -> Compliant implementation (Reaction)

Seriously though, I see this as a legitimate proposal for a registry
operator to both meet the needs of law enforcement to access this data and
the data protection requirements in the jurisdictions that affect their
business.

ICANN should not have turned this into a compliance matter, but now that
they did, It is good to see them stand up and defend their need to remain
compliant with applicable laws. I see this as a model of how all Whois data
for European data subjects will likely look in less than 6 months. 

Best,

Volker

Am 24.10.2017 um 12:42 schrieb John Bambenek:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 

-- 

John Bambenek

On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:48, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> > wrote:

Fighting the good fight.

Am 24.10.2017 um 11:32 schrieb Kris Seeburn:

This might be interesting news
. 

http://domainincite.com/22218-amsterdam-refuses-to-publish-whois-records-as-
gdpr-row-escalates

On Oct 24, 2017, at 07:59, jonathan matkowsky <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
<mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net> > wrote:

Hi, Chuck, Regarding below, has a decision been made by leadership whether
to invite the org folks to meet with us in Abu Dhabi as Greg A. was
suggesting?

Thanks 

Jonathan 

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 2:46 AM jonathan matkowsky
<jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net> >
wrote:

The other week I was asking this group about the significance of the
ePrivacy Directive and asked to get some feedback.

The memo says:

While our memorandum series will primarily focus on the GDPR, we will also
address other relevant pieces of EU legislation that may have effect on the
processing of personal data through the Whois services, such as but not
limited to the EU ePrivacy Directive 2002/58/EC and the proposed new EU
ePrivacy Regulation aimed to replace the said directive in May 2018.

This is exactly what I was asking to understand.

That said, I do want to continue our work, but I also have limited
resources—as do we all—so the sooner we can get this information, the
better. It may help us in deciding the most efficient way forward, or at
least help confirm we aren’t wasting our time in how we move forward here?

Thanks 

Jonathan 

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 9:40 AM Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
<mailto:gca at icginc.com> > wrote:

Dear Chuck:

ICANN meetings are for information-sharing.  And since we have two efforts
working on some of the exact same issues,  I suggest that some info-sharing
could be very helpful to our volunteers. 

The ICANN Org effort with Hamilton is clearly going to be more comprehensive
than the narrow effort our WG has received from Wilson Sonsini.  And as you
know, the Org effort will set a precedent which will be important for our WG
to understand. 

The new memo, and those to come, are about the impact of GDPR on
registration data and WHOIS.  I draw your attention to the end of the blog
post:

“As a reminder, this legal analysis is intended to serve as building block
for community discussions about how to approach GDPR issues in the domain
name space. [WHOIS.]

Here's where we need help from the multistakeholder community:

Please review the initial legal analysis and provide feedback. This includes
identifying possible questions, and how best to interact with data
protection agencies and others to get to the next step of the analysis.

It will be helpful to receive your feedback at the earliest opportunity, so
as to inform the upcoming discussions at ICANN60, and to feed into future
iterations of the legal analysis.”

The RDS WG is the main place where the multistakeholder community is
considering WHOIS.   So one would think that ICANN Org would have already
reached out to our WG.   I am surprised that it has not.   So, I think it’s
appropriate for us to invite the Org folks in.  The goal is to understand
that work and ask questions.  Maybe the RDS WG could then formulate some
feedback as requested above.  After all, we’ve been thinking about this
stuff for almost two years now..

As part of the briefing, it would be good to hear about this effort's
schedule and workplan.  The memo says: "We intend to provide a series of
memorandums, which will address different aspects of the issue and where the
scope and topics of each such memorandum will be discussed and agreed with
ICANN. We understand that ICANN intends to make each memorandum publicly
available."  I do not see any of those details in the memo or blog.  For
example, what topics will be the subjects of the forthcoming memos?  There’s
clearly a plan for that.

I have no idea of any of that will come out in the GDPR session on Thursday,
but since that consists of panel presentations, I am unsure and would prefer
that our WG definitely get a briefing and a chance to ask questions.

All best,

--Greg

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 11:19 AM
To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 

Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

I am curious as to how the questions are being framed.   Who is the client,
ICANN the MS body, ICANN the CEO and staff (who have been found to be a
co-controller and therefore have an interest in avoiding fines) or ICANN the
Board.

There are different interests at stake here, I  think it would be useful to
get a fuller understanding of how Teresa Swineheart is handling the
development of questions.

Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-10-19 10:43, Chuck wrote:

Greg,

Having just finished reading the Hamilton memo, I don't understand why you
think the WG needs a presentation?  What would a presentation from Teresa or
other ICANN staff person provide us that we couldn't get from the memo
itself and other sources such as the ICANN Blog, etc.?

Can you identify any advice from Hamilton that would supplant work we have
been doing?  If so, please identify it.

In my opinion:
- The advice of ways forward fits nicely into our policy development
processes.
- The Hamilton Memo confirms much of what we already heard from the DP
experts and Wilson Sonsini so we now have it from three separate sources.
- You are absolutely that we "need to understand and track the legal
advice being made" and that it overlaps what we are doing but I think that
will help us.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Aaron [mailto:gca at icginc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 7:25 AM
To: Chuck  <mailto:consult at cgomes.com> <consult at cgomes.com>; 'Alan
Greenberg'  <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca> <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>;
'GNSO RDS PDP'  <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

Dear WG  leadership:

As we expected, this ICANN Org effort will have a profound effect on our
work.  We will need to understand and track the legal advice being made,
which overlaps with and in some places may supplant work we have been doing.
And the memo's "Finding New Ways Forward"  section (3.9) provides advice for
the policy-making process.  Clearly our WG needs (deserves) a presentation
at Abu Dhabi from Teresa Swinehart, who is heading up this effort. 

Could this be done at the WG meeting on Wednesday 1 November?  
Wednesday will be better attended, both in-person and remotely.  (Some
members may still be in transit during the WG's early Saturday morning
meeting.  And the Saturday meeting is at a challenging time for those
participating remotely -- ~6:30 a.m. Saturday morning in Europe /  12:30
a.m. Saturday East Coast USA.)

As part of the briefing, it would be good to hear about this effort's
schedule, workplan, and immediate next steps.  The memo says: "We intend to
provide a series of memorandums, which will address different aspects of the
issue and where the  scope and topics of each such memorandum will be
discussed and agreed with ICANN. We understand that ICANN intends to make
each memorandum publicly available."

All best,
--Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> 
[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 8:51 AM
To: 'Alan Greenberg'  <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
<alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>; 'GNSO RDS PDP'
 <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

I want to call attention to the following paragraph:

"The memo highlights the complexity of these issues in the domain name
space, and concludes that the current open, publicly available WHOIS
services cannot remain unchanged. The WHOIS system has to become adaptable
to address the GDPR from the European perspective, as well as other changing
regulations around the world."

After input from Data Protection experts, the Wilson Sonsini memo and now
this memo, do any in the WG disagree with this statement?

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> 
[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Alan Greenberg
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 5:04 AM
To: GNSO RDS PDP  <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
<gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Legal Opinion on GDPR - Part 1

Full Blog post is at
https://www.icann.org/news/blog/data-protection-and-privacy-update.  Alan

At 19/10/2017 12:23 AM, Alan Greenberg wrote:

Perhaps it has already been posted, but if not, ICANN has received the 
first part of the independent legal analysis of the GDPR in relation to 
WHOIS that had been commissioned.

It can be found at
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/gdpr-memorandum-part1-16oct
17-e

n.pdf.

Alan

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-- 

Jonathan Matkowsky

-- 

Jonathan Matkowsky

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