[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] another document that might be of interest

Fri Oct 27 17:08:27 UTC 2017

To be truthful, yes...

ICANN 'should' set policies and/or 'laws' if you will, and if they are 
in conflict, at some time in the future lawyers and judges smarter than 
us will weigh those conflicts and determine what greater good  should be 
decided ..

But if you tried to accommodate every legal jurisdiction, and every 
possible law that might need to be considered, this project is done 
before it starts.

Already, I know that for instance the Canadian legislations around spam, 
and recommendations for proper 'whois' for instance might play a role.. 
(Have to dig up my notes)

I suggest the ICANN just go ahead, set standards that are best for the 
operation of the 'Internet' as per it's mandates, and once those 
policies are in place, I am sure that future law makers would take those 
policies into consideration when writing those laws.

And to add a personal rant.. if 'whois' requirements disappear, as they 
are quietly doing right now.. the internet itself will 'make' the rules, 
the void cannot exist.  And if that happens, history shows those rules 
will be dictated by large players, via other organizations (eg MAAWG, 
IETF, W3)..

ICANN needs to get ahead of this..

It is taking way too long already..

IMHO, simply say WHOIS 'must' show public information, if you want to 
use this 'public' resource. ICANN should send that clear message to all 
registrars NOW..

I just moved a few domains to a new registrar and found that by default 
they put 'privacy' on, even when not requested, unless you opt out.. (I 
think pretty soon they will charge for a listing, ala phone directories 
of old)

And the legal issues IMHO can simply be dealt with in terms of 'informed 
consent' and a clear 'purpose' document.  I don't think ANY government 
would challenge it in a court of law, and I do not think any law maker 
would take a challenge from 'privacy' advocates.. if that was in place..

Oh, I get the idea and the need for some wiggle room, even I have a 
couple of domains that I do want privacy on, simply because historically 
companies doing what we do have been the targets of actual physical 
attacks and abuse.. But I would give up that privacy, even for those.. 
If I didn't have to put a physical address or telephone number (email's 
don't count, they can be protected)

When registering for a new domain (or renewing), simply inform them 
[oversimplify] IF YOU WANT A DOMAIN NAME THAT is accessible publicly, 
YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE who you are.. <link to purpose> <Click here that 
you agree to this term>

As a company that is involved in email, spam protection and other core 
internet services, our auditors see thousands and thousands of malicious 
and/or throwaway domain names every day.. and the fake paypal/amex 
domains used for phishing, crime, ransomware all hide behind either fake 
registrants or privacy of course.

And just like how us in the messaging abuse community already have set 
down 'unwritten' rules that mail senders have to follow (eg domain HAS 
to have an MX/A record) if ICANN doesn't take a leadership role here, 
those that need to make the internet a workable and safe environment 
will set down these rules..

Already, many of us in this community are already starting down that 
path.. 'Sorry, can't do anything, can only talk to the registered owner 
of that domain, and we can't tell who that is..'

Frankly, if 'whois' disappeared, our job would be near impossible..
BTW, the 'old' whois protocol still works, if used properly..

ARIN is running into the same issue now.. even though it is mandated 
that correct SWIP/rwhois MUST be in place..  and they ratified that in 
recent amendments for IPv6 space..

So, in summary.. yes.. just push through with ICANN 'setting the rules', 
and forget about what law in what jurisdiction may be at odds.  People 
do not HAVE to get a domain, it is a privilege, not a right, and not 
mandatory... Otherwise people would not get domains revoked ;)  Which 
probably is against a law somewhere too..

(can't use most internet services without agreeing to terms, and in the 
case of domains, one of those terms is you MUST be willing to have the 
ownership disclosed publicly)  How much data is covered by that, is what 
ICANN can decide, and it should do that right away..

On 17-10-26 04:50 PM, consult at cgomes.com wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> I am curious.  Do you think that " ICANN policy should trump local,
> regional, and international law"?  Or maybe the question should be " May
> ICANN policy trump local, regional, and international law?"
> 
> Chuck
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 6:52 PM
> To: Rod Rasmussen <rod at rodrasmussen.com>; Andrew Sullivan
> <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
> Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] another document that might be of interest
> 
> A simple +1, can the wg work towards agreement on the continued purpose,as
> it shall determine both the justification of which dat should be included,
> as well as determining if and when ICANN policy should trump local,
> regional, and international law. There are already conflicting laws and it
> should not be the role of the wg to navigate the myriad laws, but to make a
> recommendation on what works for the internet as a whole, albeit with
> awareness of things that might affect compliance
> 
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 18:15:25 -0700
> Rod Rasmussen  wrote:
>> Thank you Andrew, could not have stated this better.
>>
>> Folks, we have to remember that whois exists for a reason - it wasnt a
>> whim created to enable spam (which didnt exist at the time) or enable
>> state surveillance, it was created for the operational realities of
>> trying to coordinate actions and issues between network operators,
>> domain holders, and those responsible for making sure the networks
>> could interconnect properly and domains resolve properly.  That
>> FUNDAMENTAL reason for having a whois database, RDS or whatever you
>> call it has not changed.  The Internet isnt a single entity, it is
>> millions of entities representing a myriad of network categories and
>> users all working together to create this amazing global unification
>> tool that all of us today are so lucky to enjoy.  Being able to
>> contact responsible parties when something goes wrong from technical
>> issues to abuse to rights infringement to outright crime is a
>> necessary adjunct to all of us hooking up these networks and network
>> identifiers together in a reliably interoper
>   able world.  If we have no tools or information to do this, then the
> Balkanization of the Internet in many ways is a very likely possibility as
> network operators will logically and likely in concern for their own
> liability, start to excise portions of the network they cannot trust due to
> lack of contactabilty, transparency or accountability a non-whois world
> would have.  I personally will not rest until we remove that possible
> outcome, at least on the question of providing reliable contact data via an
> RDS so that these fundamental issues and responsibilities of identifier
> holders can be rectified by those affected by them.
>>
>> Cutting through all the rancor, assertions, positions, etc. that weve seen
> on this group, if we could all agree with THIS fundamental concept of why we
> need an RDS populated with useful data, the sooner we can work on the
> frankly side issues that various legal issues in various parts of the world
> present as challenges towards making that happen easily.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>> On Oct 24, 2017, at 12:46 PM, Andrew Sullivan  wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 03:13:15PM -0400, Greg Shatan wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is a false dichotomy for several reasons.
>>>
>>> [and a bunch of other stuff with which I largely agree].  On top of
>>> what Greg says, I think it a strange idea that registrants' interests
>>> are best served by eliminating a tool to increase the reliability and
>>> utility of domain name registrations.  Apart from (IMO parasitic)
>>> domain name speculators, the whole point of registering a domain name
>>> is to function on the Internet.  As I have now said too often to
>>> count, the Internet is partly novel becase it offers distributed
>>> operation and management among operators with no necessary prior
>>> contractual relationship, or even one that is available transitively
>>> through some other contract.  In order to get that kind of operation,
>>> certain tools are a _required_ feature.  One of them is that, if
>>> you're going to operate any infrastructure (and domain names are
>>> Internet infrastructure), certain details about how to reach you are
>>> just going to be required.
>>>
>>> We can certainly debate the best way to make that happen, and how
>>> much of it is necessary.  But I don't think it is ever going to be
>>> completely optional, and I think anyone who thinks it can be
>>> completely optional or for that matter not in registrants' interests
>>> needs to think a little harder about the operational and protocol
>>> realities of the Internet as it exists now.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>> --
>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>
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> 
> 
> 
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"Catch the Magic of Linux..."
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Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.
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