[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dutch DPA rules public WHOIS data is against the law. EU/NL

Tue Oct 31 06:05:41 UTC 2017

This does not relate to our current focus on RDS purposes so I would request that we not continue this discussion thread at this time but I think it might be helpful to point out that some of many legal GDPR analyses that have been done emphasize the legitimacy of  the “role of the cyber investigation /anti-abuse companies”.  That said let’s hold off on discussing that until we start discussing legitimacy of the purposes.

Chuck

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Maxim Alzoba
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 11:49 AM
To: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dutch DPA rules public WHOIS data is against the law. EU/NL

Hi John, 

I think we need to leave politics aside and turn back to RDS.

Unfortunately it is not possible to say to Law Enforcement Agency or Bailiffs when they come to the office of one's company, 

that the person does not believe in the particular law and thus not following it and to expect good followup from them. 

(Example relevant to US - case no. 5:06-cr-00022-WTH-GRJ).

Given the fines proposed by the particular GDRP law, Internet might go dark due to Registries & Registrars being fined to 

the degree of bankruptcy (20M EUR is something very few of the DNS industry companies might survive), and it is worse than gated access to RDS as a future.

I do not think we propose total anonymity (the same Law Enforcement Agencies / GAC will definitely be agains it), 

leaving traces of unique Registrant and domain ROIS will allow to make investigations and might 

probably lead to necessity of the special "privacy disclosure procedure" for criminal cases.

P.s: The bad thing is that GDPR does not recognise special role of the cyber investigation /anti-abuse companies , and to 

say more it does not recognise the role of the non-EU Law Enforcement Agencies in their relevant countries outside EU either.

Sincerely Yours,

Maxim Alzoba
Special projects manager,
International Relations Department,
FAITID

m. +7 916 6761580(+whatsapp)

skype oldfrogger

Current UTC offset: +4.00 (Abu Dhabi)

On Oct 30, 2017, at 16:54, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> > wrote:

My point was more practical than political (aside of the point that when governments talk about privacy, it is rarely if ever privacy from them who historically are the biggest human rights violators). Part of the reason the internet developed the way it has promoting openness and transparency is to be resilient against government abuse. A gated whois with audit trails will inherently allow less friendly governments to profile the activities of those working against them. For instance, I’d rather the Russian government not be aware of what specifically I am looking at while trying to counter their propaganda operations. 

Sometimes the best way to protect privacy is mot to create paper trails in the first place. 

--

John Bambenek

On Oct 29, 2017, at 23:13, Theo Geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl> > wrote:

Hi John, 

You are correct, seems the politicians I voted for are shooting for a law that will give the Dutch intelligence agency far-reaching powers. 

But this is a political process, and as political processes go, it is already opposed by a large majority of the general public here. 
So we are going to enjoy the debate here in Holland for the next 6 months or so ;)

Thanks, 

Theo 

On 29-10-2017 22:51, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:

Counterpoint before we start celebrating the Dutch approach to privacy: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1408647 

-- 

John Bambenek

On Oct 27, 2017, at 04:23, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> > wrote:

Wow, this is harsh. Nothing unexpected though, as they are basically just telling you what we have repreatedly tried telling folks at ICANN for years.

This is why our work is so important. If we do not do it well, Whois will go dark! Not out of malice or because of any nefarious ill will, but out of pure legal necessity.

The abuse lobbyists may not like these legal requirements, but we will have to live with them and act accordingly. .Amsterdam did what they did because they had to, not because they felt like it.

Volker

Am 27.10.2017 um 09:08 schrieb Theo Geurts:

https://autoriteitpersoonsgegevens.nl/nl/nieuws/ap-onafgeschermde-publicatie-van-whois-gegevens-strijd-met-de-wet 

Sorry, for now Dutch only, but Google translate will help out.

Also, consent (Art 6.1b) is a no go according to the Dutch DPA. As it is not freely given according to the article.

Best,

Theo Geurts

_______________________________________________

gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list

gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 

https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> 

Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/>  / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> 
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/>  / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> 

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> 
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> 

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net> 

Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/>  / www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> 
www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/>  / www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> 

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> 
www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> 

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/attachments/20171030/d4aef778/attachment-0001.html>