[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 13 16:13:02 UTC 2018
Hi Mike,
no, sensible because a great number of registrars will be forced to deal
with this anyway, because this will affect a great many of registrations
and therefore it makes sense to take this as a basis. Of course we will
then need to see if there need to be tweaks to accomodate for other
jurisdictions, but as more as more countries are adopting similar
regimes....
Sure it will be more restrictive than open access and some people may
have a harder time than today getting at certain information, but with
tiered access access would still be possible for those with overriding
legitimate interests. That is the model the EU commission hinted at. Not
the only model, but a working one.
Volker
Am 13.02.2018 um 17:04 schrieb Dotzero:
> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as a basis
> and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your perspective and
> easier from your perspective but ICANN is an international
> organization - primarily dealing with technical/administrative issues
> - and it MUST take an approach that, as best it can, accommodates the
> laws and practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your
> proposed approach, quite simply does not do that.
>
> Michael Hammer
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a basis and
> start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts with other
> applicable laws, we should make sure to accomodate those as well,
> but as the EU Commission and others have pointed out is that
> compliance with GDPR does not preclude providing certain access
> levels to certain parties. What those levels would be and who
> those parties could be should be the main focus of our work.
>
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should be
>> designed to comply with European regulations and then applied to
>> all other jurisdictions in the world?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
>> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>;
>> 'Michael Palage' <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I am afraid that if we create different policies for different
>> regions, we will break the model, encourage forum shopping and
>> encourage firewalling of entire geographic sections of the net. I
>> hope that is not what we are doing here.
>>
>> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as our mission
>> to fix this breakage of the standard by proposing a unified model
>> once again.
>>
>> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been asking
>> for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of registration data as
>> well as the rights of the data subjects, there is no reason why
>> it should not be universally applicable.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> The WG could recommend policies that are ‘universally
>> applicable to all registrations’ but I seriously doubt that
>> will happen in today’s world. That would be much simpler
>> than policies that vary by region and users, but is it realistic?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
>> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of “One
>> World; one Internet”. This also means that the policies it
>> creates should be universally applicable to all
>> registrations, if possible. IF we start creating policy that
>> diverges, that would only lead to further fragmentation and
>> undermine the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should
>> be to create one policy that can be applied to all or most
>> registrations and that can be implemented by all registrars
>> alike.
>>
>> While we will likely have a certain amount of fragmentation
>> following May 25 as each contracted party applies its own
>> solution, it should be our goal to overcome this and present
>> a new unified policy that works for all contracted parties.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
>> <michael at palage.com <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Greg/John,
>>
>> I will respectfully push back on your legal over
>> simplification of the GDPR.
>>
>> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth in Article
>> 3 is NOT just limited to EU residents/citizens. As
>> Michele has noted in the past, the GDPR requires
>> BlackKnight as an Irish legal entity to protect all of
>> its customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with GDPR,
>> as well as US entities that target and conduct business
>> within the EU.
>>
>> Now your points about the distinction between natural and
>> legal persons is a fair one and one that has been noted
>> in EU and Art 29 communications. Could you please share
>> the basis of your proposition that 97% of all domain name
>> registrations are registered by legal entities.
>>
>> As I have note previously the long term viability of the
>> ICANN multi-stakeholder model is at risk as national
>> governments continue to pass national laws that impact
>> the operation of the Internet. However, the European
>> Union is NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation, in
>> fact data localization is perhaps the next biggest
>> lurking threat to the domain name system.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On Behalf
>> Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
>> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no justification
>> to force a law that is only intended to apply to a) EU
>> residents/citizens that are b) natural persons not using
>> the domain name for commercial purposes, to the
>> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's registrant
>> population? That would be a balanced way to implement all
>> of this.
>>
>>
>> John Horton
>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>
>> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> |
>> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> | Twitter
>> <https://twitter.com/legitscript> | _Blog
>> <http://blog.legitscript.com/>_ |Newsletter
>> <http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
>> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>>
>> GDPR is based on one principle. It states what is
>> legal. It's explicit about what you _are allowed to
>> do_; granted there’s some flexibility and room for
>> interpretation. It’s like saying what’s inside a box.
>>
>> U.S. law is one based on different principles. AFAIK
>> U.S. consumer protection law does not enumerate
>> specifically what is lawful. Instead it tends to
>> state what is illegal, what you are _not allowed to
>> do_. It’s like saying what’s outside the box. The
>> U.S. doesn’t have something like GDPR that spells out
>> legal bases for collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
>> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and consumer
>> protection laws basically say: entities have the
>> right to form contracts between themselves, they
>> should live up to the contract, don’t surprise
>> people, don’t do certain dishonest things.
>>
>> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR principle
>> the ICANN standard and you apply it to all
>> registrations, then practices that are allowable in
>> one place under the law (like the U.S.) would no
>> longer be allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN
>> would be choosing one legal approach or regime for
>> everyone in the world.
>>
>> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only to those
>> that it is designed to protect: registrants in the EU.
>>
>> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law that
>> prohibits a U.S. registrar from having a contract
>> that says publication of full contact data in WHOIS
>> is a condition of registering a domain name if you
>> are a registrant in the U.S.
>>
>> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
>> <https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/>
>> for more.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On Behalf
>> Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
>> *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive, although
>> also rather open-ended (hence our current pickle).
>> But regardless of the term we use, don’t we arrive at
>> the same place: which is that if something that
>> requires a legal basis is done without one, it will
>> be unlawful? Using Kathy’s example, if data is
>> processed without complying with minimization or
>> purpose principles, will such processing not run
>> afoul of the law, and hence be unlawful?
>>
>> There are important distinctions between the meaning
>> of “legal basis” which implies that a law requires
>> something to be affirmatively present, versus
>> “lawful”, which means that something is not
>> prohibited by law. Ultimately though, isn’t
>> “lawfulness”, the same end point, regardless?
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On Behalf
>> Of*Volker Greimann
>> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>
>> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems sound. The
>> flexibility within the GDPR still only allows
>> processing in very specific cicumstances, all of
>> which are listed in the GDPR.
>>
>> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria Sheckler:
>>
>> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a practical level
>> when one looks at the GDPR and what it says about
>> when data can be processed. The GDPR allows for
>> flexibility for what can be processed and when,
>> and kathy’s analysis overlooks that point.
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
>> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>> lawful
>>
>> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck, and
>> following up on the discussion of Sam and Tapani,
>> let me add that criteria for processing must be
>> clearer than something broadly within ICANN's
>> mission statement and something permissible
>> somewhere. The requirements under law are express
>> and concrete.
>>
>> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and c) states:
>>
>> *Personal data shall be:
>> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit and
>> legitimate purposes_and not further processed in
>> a manner that is incompatible with those
>> purposes"*(the "purpose limitation") AND*
>> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to what is
>> necessary in relation to the purposes for which
>> they are processed"*(the "data minimisation"
>> requirement). [underline added]*
>> *
>> Thus, our first criteria of "consistent with
>> ICANN's mission," is only the first step and we
>> need to go further than even the 3 criteria we
>> are discussing..
>>
>> Second, lawful and legal enter us into a debate
>> over words and I have to agree with Sam and
>> Tapani's analysis and let me add some of my own.
>>
>> "Legal" is the term we use for actions expressly
>> allowed under law. How we process personal data
>> under the GDRP falls into this category -- of
>> processing expressly allowed under law. Whereas
>> the term lawful is used for a much broader
>> category of actions which are generally
>> permissible and allowable.
>>
>> The term "legal" is much more consistent with our
>> criteria statement because the processing of
>> personal data by ICANN must clearly have a/valid
>> legal basis/as expressly defined by data
>> protection laws.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathy
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Tapani,
>>
>> I will extract from your longer message.
>> I deliberately kept my brief and less technical.
>> I think we are in agreement here and I
>> support your position.
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>>
>> The key distinction, as I understand it, is
>> that "lawful" would be
>> defined by the negative, everything that
>> some law does not prohibit,
>>
>> where as "legal basis" is defined by the
>> positive, only things whose
>> justification can be explicitly derived from law.
>>
>> <......>
>>
>> So I would prefer "legal basis" specifically
>> in this sense: that any processing
>> would have to be explicitly based on one of
>> the criteria, or bases, as listed
>> in GDPR Article 6, or similar explicit
>> justification in other data protection
>> legislation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
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>>
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