[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Tue Feb 13 16:14:59 UTC 2018
Please note that contracted parties do not "wish" to deviate from
contractual obligations, but are required to by the laws that are
applicable to them. If this was a simple matter of what we wish to do,
this would be easier.
Volker
Am 13.02.2018 um 17:09 schrieb Silver, Bradley:
>
> I agree, Michael – any single jurisdiction should not dictate the
> framework. We should of course take into account legal norms –
> including regulations such as the GDPR. We should also recall that
> to the extent any registrar or registry wishes to deviate from their
> contractual WHOIS obligations (or whatever takes their place in a
> future RDS), because of a conflict with local privacy laws, there is a
> process for them to do so.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dotzero
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:04 AM
> *To:* Volker Greimann
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as a basis
> and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your perspective and
> easier from your perspective but ICANN is an international
> organization - primarily dealing with technical/administrative issues
> - and it MUST take an approach that, as best it can, accommodates the
> laws and practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your
> proposed approach, quite simply does not do that.
>
> Michael Hammer
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a basis and
> start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts with other applicable
> laws, we should make sure to accomodate those as well, but as the EU
> Commission and others have pointed out is that compliance with GDPR
> does not preclude providing certain access levels to certain parties.
> What those levels would be and who those parties could be should be
> the main focus of our work.
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>
> Volker,
>
> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should be designed
> to comply with European regulations and then applied to all other
> jurisdictions in the world?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:* Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>;
> 'Michael Palage' <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I am afraid that if we create different policies for different
> regions, we will break the model, encourage forum shopping and
> encourage firewalling of entire geographic sections of the net. I
> hope that is not what we are doing here.
>
> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as our mission
> to fix this breakage of the standard by proposing a unified model
> once again.
>
> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been asking for,
> e.g. protect legitimate use cases of registration data as well as
> the rights of the data subjects, there is no reason why it should
> not be universally applicable.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>
> Volker,
>
> The WG could recommend policies that are ‘universally
> applicable to all registrations’ but I seriously doubt that
> will happen in today’s world. That would be much simpler than
> policies that vary by region and users, but is it realistic?
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of “One
> World; one Internet”. This also means that the policies it
> creates should be universally applicable to all registrations,
> if possible. IF we start creating policy that diverges, that
> would only lead to further fragmentation and undermine the
> founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should be to create
> one policy that can be applied to all or most registrations
> and that can be implemented by all registrars alike.
>
> While we will likely have a certain amount of fragmentation
> following May 25 as each contracted party applies its own
> solution, it should be our goal to overcome this and present a
> new unified policy that works for all contracted parties.
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage
> <michael at palage.com <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg/John,
>
> I will respectfully push back on your legal over
> simplification of the GDPR.
>
> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth in Article
> 3 is NOT just limited to EU residents/citizens. As Michele
> has noted in the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an
> Irish legal entity to protect all of its customers data
> (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with GDPR, as well as US
> entities that target and conduct business within the EU.
>
> Now your points about the distinction between natural and
> legal persons is a fair one and one that has been noted in
> EU and Art 29 communications. Could you please share the
> basis of your proposition that 97% of all domain name
> registrations are registered by legal entities.
>
> As I have note previously the long term viability of the
> ICANN multi-stakeholder model is at risk as national
> governments continue to pass national laws that impact the
> operation of the Internet. However, the European Union is
> NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation, in fact data
> localization is perhaps the next biggest lurking threat to
> the domain name system.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michael
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf
> Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I think Greg is right on. There's simply no justification
> to force a law that is only intended to apply to a) EU
> residents/citizens that are b) natural persons not using
> the domain name for commercial purposes, to the
> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's registrant
> population? That would be a balanced way to implement all
> of this.
>
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
> *Follow****LegitScript*: LinkedIn
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>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron
> <gca at icginc.com <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>
> I don’t know if we arrive at the same place.
>
> GDPR is based on one principle. It states what is
> legal. It's explicit about what you _are allowed to
> do_; granted there’s some flexibility and room for
> interpretation. It’s like saying what’s inside a box.
>
> U.S. law is one based on different principles. AFAIK
> U.S. consumer protection law does not enumerate
> specifically what is lawful. Instead it tends to
> state what is illegal, what you are _not allowed to
> do_. It’s like saying what’s outside the box. The
> U.S. doesn’t have something like GDPR that spells out
> legal bases for collecting data, i.e. the enumerated
> allowable reasons. Instead the trade and consumer
> protection laws basically say: entities have the right
> to form contracts between themselves, they should live
> up to the contract, don’t surprise people, don’t do
> certain dishonest things.
>
> Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR principle
> the ICANN standard and you apply it to all
> registrations, then practices that are allowable in
> one place under the law (like the U.S.) would no
> longer be allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN would
> be choosing one legal approach or regime for everyone
> in the world.
>
> The alternative is to apply the GDRP only to those
> that it is designed to protect: registrants in the EU.
>
> For example, there’s nothing in U.S. law that
> prohibits a U.S. registrar from having a contract that
> says publication of full contact data in WHOIS is a
> condition of registering a domain name if you are a
> registrant in the U.S.
>
> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__iapp.org_news_a_explaining-2Dthe-2Dgdpr-2Dto-2Dan-2Damerican_&d=DwMFaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQIx78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=MnL0DaGK44Xa9WEHXtgiJa-Dsa_2TZ5RCXN75zMQ6c0&s=HR7E74IbLN2-Xhfn1tX5fkjRdhqvSFbEexgHkr8K64Y&e=>
> for more.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf
> Of*Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
> *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive, although
> also rather open-ended (hence our current pickle).
> But regardless of the term we use, don’t we arrive at
> the same place: which is that if something that
> requires a legal basis is done without one, it will be
> unlawful? Using Kathy’s example, if data is processed
> without complying with minimization or purpose
> principles, will such processing not run afoul of the
> law, and hence be unlawful?
>
> There are important distinctions between the meaning
> of “legal basis” which implies that a law requires
> something to be affirmatively present, versus
> “lawful”, which means that something is not prohibited
> by law. Ultimately though, isn’t “lawfulness”, the
> same end point, regardless?
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On Behalf
> Of*Volker Greimann
> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems sound. The
> flexibility within the GDPR still only allows
> processing in very specific cicumstances, all of which
> are listed in the GDPR.
>
> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria Sheckler:
>
> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on a practical level
> when one looks at the GDPR and what it says about
> when data can be processed. The GDPR allows for
> flexibility for what can be processed and when,
> and kathy’s analysis overlooks that point.
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org]*On
> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM
> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>
> Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck, and
> following up on the discussion of Sam and Tapani,
> let me add that criteria for processing must be
> clearer than something broadly within ICANN's
> mission statement and something permissible
> somewhere. The requirements under law are express
> and concrete.
>
> Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and c) states:
>
> *Personal data shall be:
> 2. "collected for_specified, explicit and
> legitimate purposes_and not further processed in a
> manner that is incompatible with those
> purposes"*(the "purpose limitation") AND*
> 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to what is
> necessary in relation to the purposes for which
> they are processed"*(the "data minimisation"
> requirement). [underline added]*
> *
> Thus, our first criteria of "consistent with
> ICANN's mission," is only the first step and we
> need to go further than even the 3 criteria we are
> discussing..
>
> Second, lawful and legal enter us into a debate
> over words and I have to agree with Sam and
> Tapani's analysis and let me add some of my own.
>
> "Legal" is the term we use for actions expressly
> allowed under law. How we process personal data
> under the GDRP falls into this category -- of
> processing expressly allowed under law. Whereas
> the term lawful is used for a much broader
> category of actions which are generally
> permissible and allowable.
>
> The term "legal" is much more consistent with our
> criteria statement because the processing of
> personal data by ICANN must clearly have a/valid
> legal basis/as expressly defined by data
> protection laws.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathy
>
> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote:
>
> Thanks Tapani,
>
> I will extract from your longer message.
> I deliberately kept my brief and less technical.
> I think we are in agreement here and I support
> your position.
>
> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>
> The key distinction, as I understand it, is
> that "lawful" would be
> defined by the negative, everything that some
> law does not prohibit,
>
> where as "legal basis" is defined by the
> positive, only things whose
> justification can be explicitly derived from law.
>
> <......>
>
> So I would prefer "legal basis" specifically
> in this sense: that any processing
> would have to be explicitly based on one of
> the criteria, or bases, as listed
> in GDPR Article 6, or similar explicit
> justification in other data protection
> legislation.
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate
> to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
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> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
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