[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Tue Feb 13 19:02:25 UTC 2018
INteresting. And it does appear they have some data protection
provisions in their E-Commerce bill, updated in 2016, but the summary I
read sounded more like data retention requirements that data protection,
so I would not count them until proven otherwise.
cheer Stephanie
On 2018-02-13 13:49, John Horton wrote:
> Re: Panama -- my guess is eNom's privacy/proxy service? I don't think
> it's actually registrants based in Panama -- my guess is that the data
> just cited probably only accounts for the country in the Whois field
> (so if it's p/p it's not necessarily identifying the registrant's
> actual country -- would be interesting to exclude p/p Whois records to
> see what the data show). In the same vein, DomainsByProxy is generally
> (always?) US, I think, but I'd assume that there are registrants in
> other countries using DBP. Just a guess.
>
> John Horton
> President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>
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> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Stephanie Perrin
> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
> Japan and Canada have legislation, add another 7.7, I am looking
> up Panama to check. I am confident that in the block of other
> countries (24.6) there will be quite a few with DP law. (PS why
> on earth does Panama have such a large registration? retired
> Americans? Favorable liability laws?)
>
> Stephanie
>
>
> On 2018-02-13 13:36, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>> That brings us back to the question whether we would want a
>> unified DNS system or a fractured one. I personally think 14% of
>> the worlds registrations are quite a significant number, but even
>> if you do not, does this mean you would prefer fragmentation of
>> policies and rules?
>>
>>
>> Am 13.02.2018 um 19:18 schrieb John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>> +1 (to Greg)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:09 AM Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> What are the jurisdictions where gTLD registrants are
>>> located? The stats indicate that a distinct minority of
>>> gTLD registrations and registrants may qualify for GDPR
>>> protection. According to ICANN’s metrics, 14% of
>>> registrants are in the EU. The top jurisdictions are:
>>>
>>> USA 41.0%
>>>
>>> EU countries 14.0%
>>>
>>> China 9.4%
>>>
>>> Canada 4.2%
>>>
>>> Japan 3.5%
>>>
>>> Panama 3.3%
>>>
>>> [other 24.6%]
>>>
>>> These stats don’t tell us exactly how many registrations
>>> might involve GDPR (affecting that are the jurisdictions of
>>> the various parties involved in any given registartion, the
>>> fact that legal person in the EU are not due the same
>>> protection as natural persons, etc.). Still, that 14% is
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> The European Commission itself recently told ICANN that
>>> solutions can and should be balanced, to “preserve the
>>> proper use of WHOIS while ensuring full compliance with the
>>> (current and future) EU data protection rules”, and that
>>> GDPR only applies to the personal data of natural persons in
>>> the EU.
>>>
>>> So, what justifies extending a particular protection regime
>>> (baseline) to all registrants worldwide, especially when a
>>> technical system can support situational-based needs?
>>> Over-compliance is not necessary, and over-compliance erodes
>>> the proper use of WHOIS. I suggest that a proper solution
>>> is to enable compliance with a rule in the situations in
>>> which the rule applies. The proper solution is not to
>>> over-apply a rule, or to apply the rule where it does not
>>> have power.
>>>
>>> All best,
>>>
>>> --Greg
>>>
>>> Source:
>>> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/cct-metrics-domain-name-registration-2016-06-27-en
>>> <https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/cct-metrics-domain-name-registration-2016-06-27-en>
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************
>>>
>>> Greg Aaron
>>>
>>> Vice-President, Product Management
>>>
>>> iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
>>>
>>> mobile: +1.215.858.2257 <tel:(215)%20858-2257>
>>>
>>> **********************************
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>>> The information contained in this message is privileged and
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>>>
>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Kathy Kleiman
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 11:24 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>
>>> More than half the countries in the world now have
>>> comprehensive data protection laws, and the number grows
>>> every year. We found that in our research of foundation
>>> documents at the start of this WG. The tipping point took
>>> place in 2015. As it happens, Volker's approach simply does
>>> take this perspective into account.
>>>
>>> Best, Kathy
>>>
>>> On 2/13/2018 11:04 AM, Dotzero wrote:
>>>
>>> Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take
>>> GDPR as a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible
>>> from your perspective and easier from your perspective
>>> but ICANN is an international organization - primarily
>>> dealing with technical/administrative issues - and it
>>> MUST take an approach that, as best it can, accommodates
>>> the laws and practices of various jurisdictions around
>>> the world. Your proposed approach, quite simply does not
>>> do that.
>>>
>>> Michael Hammer
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR
>>> as a basis and start from there. Obviously, where it
>>> conflicts with other applicable laws, we should make
>>> sure to accomodate those as well, but as the EU
>>> Commission and others have pointed out is that
>>> compliance with GDPR does not preclude providing
>>> certain access levels to certain parties. What those
>>> levels would be and who those parties could be
>>> should be the main focus of our work.
>>>
>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck:
>>>
>>> Volker,
>>>
>>> Are you saying that you think that RDS policies
>>> should be designed to comply with European
>>> regulations and then applied to all other
>>> jurisdictions in the world?
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> *From:*Volker Greimann
>>> [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM
>>> *To:* Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
>>> <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage'
>>> <michael at palage.com> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs.
>>> lawful
>>>
>>> I am afraid that if we create different policies
>>> for different regions, we will break the model,
>>> encourage forum shopping and encourage
>>> firewalling of entire geographic sections of the
>>> net. I hope that is not what we are doing here.
>>>
>>> GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see
>>> it as our mission to fix this breakage of the
>>> standard by proposing a unified model once again.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU
>>> has been asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use
>>> cases of registration data as well as the rights
>>> of the data subjects, there is no reason why it
>>> should not be universally applicable.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>> Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck:
>>>
>>> Volker,
>>>
>>> The WG could recommend policies that are
>>> ‘universally applicable to all
>>> registrations’ but I seriously doubt that
>>> will happen in today’s world. That would be
>>> much simpler than policies that vary by
>>> region and users, but is it realistic?
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM
>>> *To:* Michael Palage <michael at palage.com>
>>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>
>>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis
>>> vs. lawful
>>>
>>> Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the
>>> thought of “One World; one Internet”. This
>>> also means that the policies it creates
>>> should be universally applicable to all
>>> registrations, if possible. IF we start
>>> creating policy that diverges, that would
>>> only lead to further fragmentation and
>>> undermine the founding ideal of ICANN
>>> itself. Our aim should be to create one
>>> policy that can be applied to all or most
>>> registrations and that can be implemented by
>>> all registrars alike.
>>>
>>> While we will likely have a certain amount
>>> of fragmentation following May 25 as each
>>> contracted party applies its own solution,
>>> it should be our goal to overcome this and
>>> present a new unified policy that works for
>>> all contracted parties.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael
>>> Palage <michael at palage.com
>>> <mailto:michael at palage.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Greg/John,
>>>
>>> I will respectfully push back on your
>>> legal over simplification of the GDPR.
>>>
>>> The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set
>>> forth in Article 3 is NOT just limited
>>> to EU residents/citizens. As Michele
>>> has noted in the past, the GDPR requires
>>> BlackKnight as an Irish legal entity to
>>> protect all of its customers data
>>> (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with GDPR, as
>>> well as US entities that target and
>>> conduct business within the EU.
>>>
>>> Now your points about the distinction
>>> between natural and legal persons is a
>>> fair one and one that has been noted in
>>> EU and Art 29 communications. Could you
>>> please share the basis of your
>>> proposition that 97% of all domain name
>>> registrations are registered by legal
>>> entities.
>>>
>>> As I have note previously the long term
>>> viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder
>>> model is at risk as national governments
>>> continue to pass national laws that
>>> impact the operation of the Internet.
>>> However, the European Union is NOT alone
>>> in advancing Privacy Legislation, in
>>> fact data localization is perhaps the
>>> next biggest lurking threat to the
>>> domain name system.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>> Behalf Of*John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> *Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM
>>> *To:*Greg Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>>
>>> *Cc:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal
>>> basis vs. lawful
>>>
>>> I think Greg is right on. There's simply
>>> no justification to force a law that is
>>> only intended to apply to a) EU
>>> residents/citizens that are b) natural
>>> persons not using the domain name for
>>> commercial purposes, to the
>>> remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the
>>> world's registrant population? That
>>> would be a balanced way to implement all
>>> of this.
>>>
>>> John Horton
>>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg&revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ
>>>
>>> *Follow****Legit**Script*: LinkedIn
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>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg
>>> Aaron <gca at icginc.com
>>> <mailto:gca at icginc.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don’t know if we arrive at the
>>> same place.
>>>
>>> GDPR is based on one principle. It
>>> states what is legal. It's explicit
>>> about what you _are allowed to do_;
>>> granted there’s some flexibility and
>>> room for interpretation. It’s like
>>> saying what’s inside a box.
>>>
>>> U.S. law is one based on different
>>> principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer
>>> protection law does not enumerate
>>> specifically what is lawful. Instead
>>> it tends to state what is illegal,
>>> what you are _not allowed to do_.
>>> It’s like saying what’s outside the
>>> box. The U.S. doesn’t have
>>> something like GDPR that spells out
>>> legal bases for collecting data,
>>> i.e. the enumerated allowable
>>> reasons. Instead the trade and
>>> consumer protection laws basically
>>> say: entities have the right to form
>>> contracts between themselves, they
>>> should live up to the contract,
>>> don’t surprise people, don’t do
>>> certain dishonest things.
>>>
>>> Here's the problem: if one makes the
>>> GDPR principle the ICANN standard
>>> and you apply it to all
>>> registrations, then practices that
>>> are allowable in one place under the
>>> law (like the U.S.) would no longer
>>> be allowed there by ICANN policy.
>>> ICANN would be choosing one legal
>>> approach or regime for everyone in
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> The alternative is to apply the GDRP
>>> only to those that it is designed to
>>> protect: registrants in the EU.
>>>
>>> For example, there’s nothing in U.S.
>>> law that prohibits a U.S. registrar
>>> from having a contract that says
>>> publication of full contact data in
>>> WHOIS is a condition of registering
>>> a domain name if you are a
>>> registrant in the U.S.
>>>
>>> Seehttps://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/
>>> <https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/>
>>> for more.
>>>
>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>> Behalf Of*Silver, Bradley via
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> *Sent:*Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM
>>> *To:*Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>;gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
>>> Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>
>>> It is true that the GDPR is
>>> prescriptive, although also rather
>>> open-ended (hence our current
>>> pickle). But regardless of the term
>>> we use, don’t we arrive at the same
>>> place: which is that if something
>>> that requires a legal basis is done
>>> without one, it will be unlawful?
>>> Using Kathy’s example, if data is
>>> processed without complying with
>>> minimization or purpose principles,
>>> will such processing not run afoul
>>> of the law, and hence be unlawful?
>>>
>>> There are important distinctions
>>> between the meaning of “legal basis”
>>> which implies that a law requires
>>> something to be affirmatively
>>> present, versus “lawful”, which
>>> means that something is not
>>> prohibited by law. Ultimately
>>> though, isn’t “lawfulness”, the same
>>> end point, regardless?
>>>
>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
>>> *Sent:*Friday, February 09, 2018
>>> 11:27 AM
>>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
>>> Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>
>>> I do not see how. Kathy's analysis
>>> seems sound. The flexibility within
>>> the GDPR still only allows
>>> processing in very specific
>>> cicumstances, all of which are
>>> listed in the GDPR.
>>>
>>> Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb
>>> Victoria Sheckler:
>>>
>>> Kathy’s analysis breaks down on
>>> a practical level when one looks
>>> at the GDPR and what it says
>>> about when data can be
>>> processed. The GDPR allows for
>>> flexibility for what can be
>>> processed and when, and kathy’s
>>> analysis overlooks that point.
>>>
>>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>]*On
>>> Behalf Of*Kathy Kleiman
>>> *Sent:*Thursday, February 8,
>>> 2018 7:07 PM
>>> *To:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg]
>>> Legal basis vs. lawful
>>>
>>> Tx for the invitation to join,
>>> Chuck, and following up on the
>>> discussion of Sam and Tapani,
>>> let me add that criteria for
>>> processing must be clearer than
>>> something broadly within ICANN's
>>> mission statement and something
>>> permissible somewhere. The
>>> requirements under law are
>>> express and concrete.
>>>
>>> Specifically, GDPR Article
>>> 5(1)(b and c) states:
>>>
>>> *Personal data shall be:
>>> 2. "collected for_specified,
>>> explicit and legitimate
>>> purposes_and not further
>>> processed in a manner that is
>>> incompatible with those
>>> purposes"*(the "purpose
>>> limitation") AND*
>>> 3. "adequate, relevant and
>>> limited to what is necessary in
>>> relation to the purposes for
>>> which they are processed"*(the
>>> "data minimisation"
>>> requirement). [underline added]*
>>> *
>>> Thus, our first criteria of
>>> "consistent with ICANN's
>>> mission," is only the first step
>>> and we need to go further than
>>> even the 3 criteria we are
>>> discussing..
>>>
>>> Second, lawful and legal enter
>>> us into a debate over words and
>>> I have to agree with Sam and
>>> Tapani's analysis and let me add
>>> some of my own.
>>>
>>> "Legal" is the term we use for
>>> actions expressly allowed under
>>> law. How we process personal
>>> data under the GDRP falls into
>>> this category -- of processing
>>> expressly allowed under law.
>>> Whereas the term lawful is used
>>> for a much broader category of
>>> actions which are generally
>>> permissible and allowable.
>>>
>>> The term "legal" is much more
>>> consistent with our criteria
>>> statement because the processing
>>> of personal data by ICANN must
>>> clearly have a/valid legal
>>> basis/as expressly defined by
>>> data protection laws.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathy
>>>
>>> On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam
>>> Lanfranco wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Tapani,
>>>
>>> I will extract from your
>>> longer message.
>>> I deliberately kept my brief
>>> and less technical.
>>> I think we are in agreement
>>> here and I support your
>>> position.
>>>
>>> On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani
>>> Tarvainen wrote:
>>>
>>> The key distinction, as I
>>> understand it, is that
>>> "lawful" would be
>>> defined by the negative,
>>> everything that some law
>>> does not prohibit,
>>>
>>> where as "legal basis" is
>>> defined by the positive,
>>> only things whose
>>> justification can be
>>> explicitly derived from law.
>>>
>>> <......>
>>>
>>> So I would prefer "legal
>>> basis" specifically in this
>>> sense: that any processing
>>> would have to be explicitly
>>> based on one of the
>>> criteria, or bases, as listed
>>> in GDPR Article 6, or
>>> similar explicit
>>> justification in other data
>>> protection legislation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>
>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>
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>>> Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B
>>> 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.:
>>> DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>Der
>>> Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und
>>> nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt.
>>> Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung
>>> oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den
>>> Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese
>>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
>>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder
>>> telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> Should you have any further questions,
>>> please do not hesitate to contact us. Best
>>> regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal
>>> department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk
>>> 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 -
>>> 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>Fax.: +49
>>> (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> <tel:+49%206894%209396851>Email:
>>> vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>Web:
>>> www.key-systems.net
>>> <http://www.key-systems.net> /
>>> www.RRPproxy.net
>>> <http://www.RRPproxy.net>www.domaindiscount24.com
>>> <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /
>>> www.BrandShelter.com
>>> <http://www.BrandShelter.com>Follow us on
>>> Twitter or join our fan community on
>>> Facebook and stay updated:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>CEO:
>>> Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B
>>> 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
>>> <http://www.keydrive.lu>This e-mail and its
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>>> misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the
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