[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP

Alan Greenberg alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
Sat Feb 17 20:45:49 UTC 2018 

GoDaddy has made it very clear that their action 
is unrelated to GDPR, most recently in a message 
to this list from Sara Bockey 
(http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/2018-February/005543.html).

You can choose to believe them or not. Since 
their action has only affected their bulk access 
path and not the web interface, it would offer 
ZERO protection with regard to GDPR, so I am 
inclined to accept their explanation.

A non-EU registrar may choose to protect all 
customers in addition to EU-based ones, or may 
choose to follow the complex path (that is 
sarcasm) of looking at the country the customer 
supplies, or the country from which the credit 
card originated. It is purely up to them 
unless/until ICANN indicates otherwise.

We have a difficult enough job dealing with the 
facts and the very significant uncertainties. 
Let's not invest alternative facts to confuse us even more.

Alan

At 17/02/2018 02:12 PM, Raoul Plommer wrote:

>Let me rephrase that: a non-European company 
>complies with GDPR because of its European data 
>subjects (could be fined otherwise). Their 
>non-European clients are thus very possbily, 
>indirectly protected because of the GDPR, if the 
>company makes changes to all of its processing 
>of data. I think GoDaddy is already an example of that.
>
>-Raoul
>
>On 17 February 2018 at 21:03, 
><<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>consult at cgomes.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks Raoul.  So you think that a non-European 
>registrar or registry could be fined if it 
>violated the GDPR for a non-European natural person?
>
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: Raoul Plommer [mailto:plommer at gmail.com]
>Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 10:57 AM
>To: <mailto:consult at cgomes.com>consult at cgomes.com
>Cc: Ayden Férdeline 
><<mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>icann at ferdeline.com>; 
>Paul Keating <<mailto:paul at law.es>paul at law.es>; 
>RDS PDP WG <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
>
>
>
>I don't understand how the GDPR could
>protect non-European natural persons dealing with non-European companies.
>
>
>
>Unfortunately, not all laws can be that well 
>enforced, but they are nevertheless in place. In 
>this particular example, I think there's the 
>massive threat of getting fined, that will give 
>the companies the right incentive to comply. 
>Banks and financial services in tax-havens didn't expect to get caught either.
>
>
>
>If a non-European company complies with the GDPR 
>because of its European customers, then its 
>non-European are extended the same protections through interfaces and access.
>
>
>
>-Raoul
>
>
>
>On 17 February 2018 at 20:20, 
><<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>consult at cgomes.com> wrote:
>
>As one who is trying to understand the GDPR, the 
>key condition for these recitals is ‘processed 
>within the legal boundaries of the European Union’.
>
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline
>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 12:27 PM
>To: Paul Keating <<mailto:paul at law.es>paul at law.es>
>
>
>Cc: RDS PDP WG <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
>
>
>
>I interpret the GDPR as applying to anyone, 
>residing anywhere, regardless of his or her 
>citizenship, whose data is processed within the 
>legal boundaries of the European Union.
>
>
>
><http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-2-GDPR.htm>Recital 
>2 (emphasis added) states: "The principles of, 
>and rules on the protection of natural persons 
>with regard to the processing of their personal 
>data should, whatever their nationality or 
>residence, respect their fundamental rights and 
>freedoms, in particular their right to the protection of personal data."
>
>
>
><http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-4-GDPR.htm>Recital 
>4 (emphasis added) states: "The processing of 
>personal data should be designed to serve mankind."
>
>
>
><http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-14-GDPR.htm>Recital 
>14 (emphasis added) states: "The protection 
>afforded by this Regulation should apply to 
>natural persons, whatever their nationality or 
>place of residence, in relation to the processing of their personal data."
>
>
>
>Ayden
>
>
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>
>On 16 February 2018 9:07 PM, Paul Keating 
><<mailto:paul at law.es>paul at law.es> wrote:
>
>
>
>John,
>
>
>
>Given that the GDPR only applies to private data 
>of private individuals residing in the EU, i 
>dount you will ever see such a statement.
>
>
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>On 16 Feb 2018, at 21:02, John Horton via 
>gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
><<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>
>Ha, thanks Michele, and sorry for the timing! 
>(Hope your answer was written over a bottle of 
>red wine, preferably an Oregon pinot.)
>
>
>
>Let me clarify my question, and feel free to 
>defer the answer if next week is better. I'm 
>asking if registrars have received specific 
>guidance, or can point to anything specific in 
>the GDPR or any written document, indicating 
>that you have to provide GDPR protections to all 
>of your customers, even if they aren't in scope. 
>In other words, I'm looking for a very clear 
>statement along these lines from a DPA:
>
>
>
>As an EU company, even if your customer is a 
>natural person in the US, you must provide them 
>the same rights under the GDPR that an EU 
>natural person would receive. Failure to do so is non-compliant with the GDPR.
>
>
>
>Obviously, the exact wording my differ, but I'm 
>trying to challenge your statement that "As an 
>Irish company all our clients have to be handled 
>under GDPR." If that's true as a legal 
>requirement, I think it's important for the 
>security/compliance community to be aware of 
>that...if it's not, perhaps that opens up some 
>more granular approaches that can satisfy both sides.
>
>
>
>John Horton
>President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>Follow LegitScript: 
><http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>LinkedIn 
>| 
><https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript>Facebook 
>|  <https://twitter.com/legitscript>Twitter  | 
><http://blog.legitscript.com/>Blog  | 
><http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>Newsletter
>
>
>
>Image removed by sender.
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Michele Neylon 
>- Blacknight <<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
>John
>
>
>
>Of course you would wait until a Friday evening to ask me this ..
>
>
>
>Anyway ..
>
>
>
>As a company in the EU we have to do everything through the lens of GDPR.
>
>
>That does not mean that a company will get the 
>same treatment as a private individual.
>
>
>
>What it does mean is that we (and other EU based 
>registrars and registries) have to consider 
>whether or not there is personal information in 
>the currently public whois information. I’m 
>not 100% sure yet what the best way of dealing with that is.
>While we can ask new clients things during 
>signup, it’s going to be significantly harder 
>to get a response from the existing ones.
>
>
>
>Regards
>
>
>
>Michele
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Mr Michele Neylon
>
>Blacknight Solutions
>
>Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
><https://www.blacknight.com>https://www.blacknight.com
>
>https://blacknight.blog /
>
><http://ceo.hosting/>http://ceo.hosting/
>
>Intl. <tel:+353%2059%20918%203072>+353 (0) 59  9183072
>
>Direct Dial: <tel:+353%2059%20918%203090>+353 (0)59 9183090
>
>-------------------------------
>
>Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
>Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265
>
>,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>From: John Horton 
><<mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>john.horton at legitscript.com>
>Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 19:28
>To: Michele Neylon <<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>michele at blacknight.com>
>Cc: "<mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se" 
><<mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se>, RDS 
>PDP WG <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
>
>
>
>Michele,
>
>
>
>Let me dig in a bit on one question there -- 
>actually curious about this. You indicated "As 
>an Irish company all our clients have to be 
>handled under GDPR." So, for example, let's say 
>that I transferred my company's domain name 
>(obviously, we're a legal person, and we're 
>domiciled in the US and registered here) to 
>Blacknight. I think you'd agree we're not the 
>intended beneficiary of the GDPR. My specific 
>question for you is: Is there written guidance 
>somewhere indicating that you do, in fact, have 
>to provide me GDPR protections? That your 
>policies have to apply to me? If there's some 
>language out there specifically indicating that, 
>it would be helpful to see that. I didn't see 
>that in the Hamilton memo (perhaps I'm missing 
>it) nor in the text of the GDPR (but again, 
>perhaps I'm missing it). Let me know if my question doesn't make sense.
>
>
>
>John Horton
>President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>Follow LegitScript: 
><http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>LinkedIn 
>| 
><https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript>Facebook 
>|  <https://twitter.com/legitscript>Twitter  | 
><http://blog.legitscript.com/>Blog  | 
><http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>Newsletter
>
>
>
>Image removed by sender.
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Michele Neylon 
>- Blacknight <<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
>John
>
>
>
>There are two distinct discussions here which 
>seem to be getting mixed together.
>
>
>
>During the proxy / privacy discussion some 
>people wanted there to be a distinction between 
>who could avail of proxy / privacy services. 
>Some wanted a prohibition on letting 
>“commercial” have the ability to use proxy / privacy.
>
>
>
>The discussions here and elsewhere around 
>collection and publication of data in light of GDPR are very different.
>
>
>
>Nobody is disputing that there is a distinction 
>between private individuals and corporations 
>when it comes to GDPR. However there are risks 
>associated with the processing of personal 
>information, which may be tied into corporate 
>information. And the “commercial” vs 
>“non-commercial” distinction won’t work.
>
>
>
>Where there is a clear difference is between 
>treatment of registrants based on geography.
>
>As an Irish company all our clients have to be 
>handled under GDPR. The same would be true of 
>any other provider based in the EU.
>
>
>
>I cannot speak to nor will I get involved in 
>debates around what various non-EU based 
>operators may currently be doing or plan to do 
>in the future – there are enough oof them on 
>this list who can do so more ably than I and without my help.
>
>
>
>Regards
>
>
>
>Michele
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Mr Michele Neylon
>
>Blacknight Solutions
>
>Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
><https://www.blacknight.com>https://www.blacknight.com
>
>https://blacknight.blog /
>
><http://ceo.hosting/>http://ceo.hosting/
>
>Intl. <tel:+353%2059%20918%203072>+353 (0) 59  9183072
>
>Direct Dial: <tel:+353%2059%20918%203090>+353 (0)59 9183090
>
>-------------------------------
>
>Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
>Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265
>
>,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
><<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> 
>on behalf of John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
><<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>Reply-To: John Horton 
><<mailto:john.horton at legitscript.com>john.horton at legitscript.com>
>Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 18:54
>To: "<mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se" 
><<mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se>
>Cc: RDS PDP WG <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
>
>
>
>I think quite a bit in this WG and certainly in 
>the prior privacy/proxy PDP, and absolutely what 
>we're seeing with GoDaddy. To make sure I'm 
>being clear about what I mean, GoDaddy isn't 
>only redacting Whois information (via Port 43) 
>where it's an EU natural citizen or natural 
>resident. The information is being redacted 
>for....everyone. All registrants. There's simply no justification for that.
>
>
>
>I predict you'd see (I'm not speaking for anyone 
>here, just me) a real willingness on the 
>security and compliance community's part to 
>compromise and support a system where, IF a 
>registrant is an EU natural person (yes, I know 
>we need to define it accurately -- citizen, 
>resident, we can get granular later) then...hey, 
>let's set up a system in involving redaction of 
>some fields, access to those fields in 
>legitimate cases, etc. I want to support 
>registrars' compliance with the GDPR. But we're 
>seeing the registrar community say: We want to 
>apply this globally. To all domain name 
>registrations. Doesn't matter if the registrant 
>is the intended beneficiary of the new law, or 
>in scope, or not. We're going to just change global policy.
>
>
>
>I think that viewpoint has been pretty 
>repeatedly represented in this working group, 
>but I'd love to hear from registrars that would 
>support a more targeted solution where only the 
>intended beneficiaries of the GDPR (that is, 
>in-scope registrants) are covered under the policy.
>
>
>
>John Horton
>President and CEO, LegitScript
>
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>Follow LegitScript: 
><http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>LinkedIn 
>| 
><https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript>Facebook 
>|  <https://twitter.com/legitscript>Twitter  | 
><http://blog.legitscript.com/>Blog  | 
><http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html>Newsletter
>
>
>
>Image removed by sender.
>Image removed by sender.
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:44 AM, 
><mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se 
><<mailto:benny at nordreg.se>benny at nordreg.se> wrote:
>
>Please refer to where registrars have been unwilling to explore this option?
>
>
>
>--
>Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>
>Benny Samuelsen
>Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>
>Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>IANA-ID: 638
>Phone: <tel:%2B46.42197000>+46.42197000
>Direct: <tel:%2B47.32260201>+47.32260201
>Mobile: <tel:%2B47.40410200>+47.40410200
>
> > On 16 Feb 2018, at 19:38, John Horton via 
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
> <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
> >
> > Just imagine how much of all of this could be 
> avoided if registrars were willing to agree to 
> a commercial/individual distinction.
> >
> > John Horton
> > President and CEO, LegitScript
> >
> >
> > Follow LegitScript: 
> LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  Blog  |  Newsletter
> >
> >
> >
>
> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:33 AM, John 
> Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
> <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
> > GDPR taken to its logical extreme very well 
> could require us to abandon IP reputation and 
> to emptying our firewalls. I mean, no consumer 
> authorized me to process their IP just by attacking me, right?
> >
> > Privacy absolutism is not the answer unless 
> you basically want to mandate the internet backbone be converted to tor.
> >
> > --
> > John Bambenek
> >
> > On Feb 16, 2018, at 06:09, Michele Neylon - 
> Blacknight <<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It’s an interesting read, but it has several flaws.
> >>
> >> It refers to registrars solely and ignores registries.
> >>
> >> It also makes it sound like issues around 
> whois are “new”, which we all know isn’t true.
> >>
> >> The comments about IP addresses make it 
> sound like it’s a theoretical concern, yet there is case law eg:
> >>
> >> 
> <https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/european-court-of-justice-rules-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-1.2835704>https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/european-court-of-justice-rules-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-1.2835704
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Mr Michele Neylon
> >>
> >> Blacknight Solutions
> >>
> >> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> >>
> >> <https://www.blacknight.com/>https://www.blacknight.com/
> >>
> >> http://blacknight.blog/
> >>
> >> Intl. <tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%20%209183072>+353 (0) 59 9183072
> >>
> >> Direct Dial: <tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090>+353 (0)59 9183090
> >>
> >> Personal blog: <https://michele.blog/>https://michele.blog/
> >>
> >> Some thoughts: <https://ceo.hosting/>https://ceo.hosting/
> >>
> >> -------------------------------
> >>
> >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 
> 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
> >>
> >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >>
> >> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg 
> <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> 
> on behalf of Dotzero <<mailto:dotzero at gmail.com>dotzero at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 00:07
> >> To: RDS PDP WG 
> <<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> <https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/02/new-eu-privacy-law-may-weaken-security/>https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/02/new-eu-privacy-law-may-weaken-security/
> >>
> >> Michael Hammer
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
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