[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP

Paul Keating Paul at law.es
Mon Feb 19 11:06:59 UTC 2018 

Chuck,

Jurisdiction can be found (basically) in 2 instances:

1.	You are physically present in the jurisdiction (using the Kind¹s roads
means the king can arrest you).  Physical presence means ³general²
jurisdiction - you are subject to jurisdiction for any and all purposes.

2.	Effective presence in the Jurisdiction.  In US jurisprudence this is
referred to as ³minimum contacts².  Grossly stated that means you have
taken advantage of what the jurisdiction has to offer in terms of
benefits.  So, for example, you sell to customers inside the jurisdiction,
you market your goods/services to people resident in the jurisdiction,
etc.  I tis a facts and circumstances test.  However just because you
satisfy "Minimum contacts² does not mean the courts can exercise
jurisdiction over you for all purposes.  However, they certainly can
exercise jurisdiction as to matters arising from your minimum contacts.
So, having sold lots of goods/services to EU customers, you would be
subject to jurisdiction for issues related to such sales/marketing.
However, you may not be subject to jurisdiction for a separate matter such
as failure to pay an unrelated debt.

Does this help? 

On 2/17/18, 6:34 PM, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
consult at cgomes.com" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
consult at cgomes.com> wrote:

>As you all know, I am not an attorney, but I am curious how a European
>regulation can have jurisdiction over me as a non-European subject and
>over a processor outside of Europe that is not processing data for a
>European subject.
>
>Chuck
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On
>Behalf Of Tapani Tarvainen
>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 1:15 PM
>To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and GDRP
>
>That is not correct. The three parts of Article 3 in GDPR don't have AND
>between them: GDPR applies if any of them is satisfied.
>
>So it applies if EITHER the data subject resides in the EU OR the data
>processor/controller is established in the EU.
>
>In the latter case also if the data subject is outside EU and even if the
>actual processing takes places outside EU.
>
>Tapani
>
>On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 09:10:02PM +0000, Paul Keating (paul at law.es)
>wrote:
>> 
>> Yes BUT it applies ONLY to the collection and processing of the PDI of
>>individuals residing in the EU.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> > On 16 Feb 2018, at 21:51, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>><michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > John
>> >  
>> > Article 3, as referenced by Tapani, makes it very clear to me:
>> > ³1. This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the
>>context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a
>>processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processing takes place
>>in the Union or not²
>> >  
>> > Regards
>> >  
>> > Michele
>> >  
>> > --
>> > Mr Michele Neylon
>> > Blacknight Solutions
>> > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > https://www.blacknight.com
>> > https://blacknight.blog /
>> > http://ceo.hosting/
>> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> > Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265 ,Ireland  Company
>> > No.: 370845
>> > From: John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com>
>> > Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 20:02
>> > To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> > Cc: "benny at nordreg.se" <benny at nordreg.se>, RDS PDP WG
>> > <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois
>> > and GDRP
>> >  
>> > Ha, thanks Michele, and sorry for the timing! (Hope your answer was
>> > written over a bottle of red wine, preferably an Oregon pinot.)
>> >  
>> > Let me clarify my question, and feel free to defer the answer if next
>>week is better. I'm asking if registrars have received specific
>>guidance, or can point to anything specific in the GDPR or any written
>>document, indicating that you have to provide GDPR protections to all of
>>your customers, even if they aren't in scope. In other words, I'm
>>looking for a very clear statement along these lines from a DPA:
>> >  
>> > As an EU company, even if your customer is a natural person in the
>>US, you must provide them the same rights under the GDPR that an EU
>>natural person would receive. Failure to do so is non-compliant with the
>>GDPR. 
>> >  
>> > Obviously, the exact wording my differ, but I'm trying to challenge
>>your statement that "As an Irish company all our clients have to be
>>handled under GDPR." If that's true as a legal requirement, I think it's
>>important for the security/compliance community to be aware of that...if
>>it's not, perhaps that opens up some more granular approaches that can
>>satisfy both sides.
>> > 
>> > John Horton
>> > President and CEO, LegitScript
>> > 
>> >  
>> > Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  Blog  |
>> > Newsletter
>> >  
>> > 
>> >  
>> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>><michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> > John
>> >  
>> > Of course you would wait until a Friday evening to ask me this ..
>> >  
>> > Anyway ..
>> >  
>> > As a company in the EU we have to do everything through the lens of
>>GDPR.
>> > 
>> > That does not mean that a company will get the same treatment as a
>>private individual.
>> >  
>> > What it does mean is that we (and other EU based registrars and
>>registries) have to consider whether or not there is personal
>>information in the currently public whois information. I¹m not 100% sure
>>yet what the best way of dealing with that is.
>> > While we can ask new clients things during signup, it¹s going to be
>>significantly harder to get a response from the existing ones.
>> >  
>> > Regards
>> >  
>> > Michele
>> >  
>> >  
>> > --
>> > Mr Michele Neylon
>> > Blacknight Solutions
>> > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > https://www.blacknight.com
>> > https://blacknight.blog /
>> > http://ceo.hosting/
>> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> > Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265 ,Ireland  Company
>> > No.: 370845
>> > From: John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com>
>> > Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 19:28
>> > To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> > Cc: "benny at nordreg.se" <benny at nordreg.se>, RDS PDP WG
>> > <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois
>> > and GDRP
>> >  
>> > Michele,
>> >  
>> > Let me dig in a bit on one question there -- actually curious about
>>this. You indicated "As an Irish company all our clients have to be
>>handled under GDPR." So, for example, let's say that I transferred my
>>company's domain name (obviously, we're a legal person, and we're
>>domiciled in the US and registered here) to Blacknight. I think you'd
>>agree we're not the intended beneficiary of the GDPR. My specific
>>question for you is: Is there written guidance somewhere indicating that
>>you do, in fact, have to provide me GDPR protections? That your policies
>>have to apply to me? If there's some language out there specifically
>>indicating that, it would be helpful to see that. I didn't see that in
>>the Hamilton memo (perhaps I'm missing it) nor in the text of the GDPR
>>(but again, perhaps I'm missing it). Let me know if my question doesn't
>>make sense. 
>> > 
>> > John Horton
>> > President and CEO, LegitScript
>> > 
>> >  
>> > Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  Blog  |
>> > Newsletter
>> >  
>> > 
>> >  
>> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>><michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> > John
>> >  
>> > There are two distinct discussions here which seem to be getting
>>mixed together.
>> >  
>> > During the proxy / privacy discussion some people wanted there to be
>>a distinction between who could avail of proxy / privacy services. Some
>>wanted a prohibition on letting ³commercial² have the ability to use
>>proxy / privacy.
>> >  
>> > The discussions here and elsewhere around collection and publication
>>of data in light of GDPR are very different.
>> >  
>> > Nobody is disputing that there is a distinction between private
>>individuals and corporations when it comes to GDPR. However there are
>>risks associated with the processing of personal information, which may
>>be tied into corporate information. And the ³commercial² vs
>>³non-commercial² distinction won¹t work.
>> >  
>> > Where there is a clear difference is between treatment of registrants
>>based on geography.
>> > As an Irish company all our clients have to be handled under GDPR.
>>The same would be true of any other provider based in the EU.
>> >  
>> > I cannot speak to nor will I get involved in debates around what
>>various non-EU based operators may currently be doing or plan to do in
>>the future ­ there are enough of them on this list who can do so more
>>ably than I and without my help.
>> >  
>> > Regards
>> >  
>> > Michele
>> >  
>> >  
>> > --
>> > Mr Michele Neylon
>> > Blacknight Solutions
>> > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > https://www.blacknight.com
>> > https://blacknight.blog /
>> > http://ceo.hosting/
>> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> > Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow, R93 X265 ,Ireland  Company
>> > No.: 370845
>> > From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf
>> > of John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > Reply-To: John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com>
>> > Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 18:54
>> > To: "benny at nordreg.se" <benny at nordreg.se>
>> > Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois
>> > and GDRP
>> >  
>> > I think quite a bit in this WG and certainly in the prior
>>privacy/proxy PDP, and absolutely what we're seeing with GoDaddy. To
>>make sure I'm being clear about what I mean, GoDaddy isn't only
>>redacting Whois information (via Port 43) where it's an EU natural
>>citizen or natural resident. The information is being redacted
>>for....everyone. All registrants. There's simply no justification for
>>that. 
>> >  
>> > I predict you'd see (I'm not speaking for anyone here, just me) a
>>real willingness on the security and compliance community's part to
>>compromise and support a system where, IF a registrant is an EU natural
>>person (yes, I know we need to define it accurately -- citizen,
>>resident, we can get granular later) then...hey, let's set up a system
>>in involving redaction of some fields, access to those fields in
>>legitimate cases, etc. I want to support registrars' compliance with the
>>GDPR. But we're seeing the registrar community say: We want to apply
>>this globally. To all domain name registrations. Doesn't matter if the
>>registrant is the intended beneficiary of the new law, or in scope, or
>>not. We're going to just change global policy.
>> >  
>> > I think that viewpoint has been pretty repeatedly represented in this
>>working group, but I'd love to hear from registrars that would support a
>>more targeted solution where only the intended beneficiaries of the GDPR
>>(that is, in-scope registrants) are covered under the policy.
>> > 
>> > John Horton
>> > President and CEO, LegitScript
>> > 
>> >  
>> > Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  Blog  |
>> > Newsletter
>> >  
>> > 
>> >  
>> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:44 AM, benny at nordreg.se <benny at nordreg.se>
>>wrote:
>> > Please refer to where registrars have been unwilling to explore this
>>option?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > --
>> > Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>> > 
>> > Benny Samuelsen
>> > Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>> > 
>> > Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> > IANA-ID: 638
>> > Phone: +46.42197000
>> > Direct: +47.32260201
>> > Mobile: +47.40410200
>> > 
>> > > On 16 Feb 2018, at 19:38, John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>><gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Just imagine how much of all of this could be avoided if registrars
>>were willing to agree to a commercial/individual distinction.
>> > >
>> > > John Horton
>> > > President and CEO, LegitScript
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn  |  Facebook  |  Twitter  |  Blog  |
>> > > Newsletter
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:33 AM, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>><gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>> > > GDPR taken to its logical extreme very well could require us to
>>abandon IP reputation and to emptying our firewalls. I mean, no consumer
>>authorized me to process their IP just by attacking me, right?
>> > >
>> > > Privacy absolutism is not the answer unless you basically want to
>>mandate the internet backbone be converted to tor.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > John Bambenek
>> > >
>> > > On Feb 16, 2018, at 06:09, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>><michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> It¹s an interesting read, but it has several flaws.
>> > >>
>> > >> It refers to registrars solely and ignores registries.
>> > >>
>> > >> It also makes it sound like issues around whois are ³new², which
>>we all know isn¹t true.
>> > >>
>> > >> The comments about IP addresses make it sound like it¹s a
>>theoretical concern, yet there is case law eg:
>> > >>
>> > >> https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/european-court-of-
>> > >> justice-rules-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-1.2835704
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >>
>> > >> Mr Michele Neylon
>> > >>
>> > >> Blacknight Solutions
>> > >>
>> > >> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > >>
>> > >> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> > >>
>> > >> http://blacknight.blog/
>> > >>
>> > >> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>> > >>
>> > >> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > >>
>> > >> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> > >>
>> > >> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>> > >>
>> > >> -------------------------------
>> > >>
>> > >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> > >> Park,Sleaty
>> > >>
>> > >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>> > >>
>> > >> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on
>> > >> behalf of Dotzero <dotzero at gmail.com>
>> > >> Date: Friday 16 February 2018 at 00:07
>> > >> To: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > >> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Krebs On Security article RE whois and
>> > >> GDRP
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/02/new-eu-privacy-law-may-weaken
>> > >> -security/
>> > >>
>> > >> Michael Hammer
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > 
>> >  
>> >  
>> >  
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
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>
>--
>Tapani Tarvainen
>_______________________________________________
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