[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Next Gen RDS - Update from Leadership Team

[Greg Shatan]

John, Michele and Volker all made some good points, but this is being
presented as a black vs. white argument, when the truth is grey.

It’s a fact that ePDP participation is restricted to those seated by ICANN
structures.  So it is an “insider” process in that respect, especially by
comparison to the RDS WG.  However, variations on this type of structure
have been used many times before in ICANN policy-making, even though there
was a recent spate of “big-tent” WGs and CCWGs.

The ePDP is not happening in private.  You can become an Observer, and get
listen-only access to the Adobe Connect room and read-only access to the
email list. (I just got off the call before writing this.) Anyone (Observer
or not) can also review any meeting at your convenience, through the
various recordings, transcripts, etc., posted on the ICANN website.  This
is a fairly transparent process, even if your nose is pressed up against
the (transparent) glass.

On the other hand, transparency is not the same thing as access to
involvement.

It’s true that virtually any organization or individual should be able to
join *some* ICANN structure. But no one can join *any* structure.  Some
structures are open to “anyone” (or almost anyone), while others are open
only to those with certain attributes, and can be be viewed as closed,
essentially closed, or drawing from a very finite universe.  Relatively
open structures include the BC, NCUC and ALAC/At-Large. Relatively closed
structures (to differing degrees and in differing ways) include GAC, RySG,
RrSG, ISPCP, and IPC.  SSAC and RSSAC are more closed still.  Even within
these more closed groups there are still varying views (and sometimes very
varying views).

Not every stakeholder has a natural entry point into the ICANN structure
set-up.  Some types of stakeholders have obvious or well-defined “home”
structures.  Some may even have more than one.

However, others stakeholders don’t appear to have any obvious “home”
structure.  This is true even where the stakeholders seem quite relevant to
ICANN and the issues dealt with here.  Resellers, hosting companies, web
developers, cybersecurity professionals, anti-spam, anti-malware,
anti-threat and other anti-abuse professionals are among the relevant
stakeholders that don’t have an obvious home.

If you don’t feel there’s a group where you fit well, that is a huge
impediment to participating in ICANN through the “structure” set-up.  But
even that is a hurdle, rather than a hard barrier.  You can find someplace
to fit, even if the fit is slightly awkward.

Some may be able to join At-Large, but that’s not a great fit if they want
to participate in their professional capacity and not as end-users.

Some may be able to join BC, but that risks the BC becoming a grab-bag of
business sectors with wildly varying viewpoints, united only by the fact
that they are “in business.”

Some maybe be able to join NCUC, but that’s not a great fit for many of
those mentioned above.

Some, if they are very, very brave, could even band together and try to
start a new Constituency, falling under CSG or NCSG.  If they are even more
brave (and foolhardy and masochistic), they could even propose a more
fundamental change to the ICANN structure system.

Even if the fit isn’t great, you join a structure to carry your own torch
and to persuade others to carry it with you — both those in your structure
and those in the larger ICANN ecosystem.  Ideally, you carry a torch for a
common interest that transcends any particular stakeholder concerns — a
healthy multi-stakeholder process demands that its stakeholders do this.

Finding some way Into the system is of great importance.  The “big tent”
Working Group model (where all are welcome) represents only one working
method and only one part of the process.  You cannot count on that model
for entree into all things ICANN.

And even when you are in a structure, you need to build bridges beyond that
structure, try to be persuasive and try to be flexible in order to find
solutions that strike enough of a balance to be credible candidates for
consensus.  Also, there’s a significant value in showing up at ICANN
meetings — participating in Working Groups without going to meetings is
like piano with mittens on (and I should know, I did it for 6 years (the no
meetings thing, not the piano/mittens thing)).

However, the burden is not only on the underrepresented stakeholders to
find a place and to make that place work. In the long run, the burden is on
ICANN structures, their participants, ICANN org and the internal and
external review processes to consider issues like this and make
recommendations and changes.

In sum, the system isn’t perfect. Far from it. But (in my view), it’s
better to find ways to participate, rather than just throwing stones from
the outside.  (There’s plenty of room for throwing stones on the inside,
too, and even that is more effective as a participant.)

Best regards,

Greg
(Apologies for length)



On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 11:08 AM Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
wrote:

> So you are saying there is no one within the ICANN community that shares
> your views? And that does not tell you anything?
>
> If you feel underrepresented, start working in the system. If you do not
> participate, either directly or indirectly, you ave no chance of being
> heard.
>
> Volker
>
> Am 11.10.2018 um 17:02 schrieb John Bambenek:
>
> Exactly.
>
> You’re right, we’re wrong. Now that we’ve established this a priori, why
> would I join a constituency? To carry your torches?
>
> --
> John Bambenek
>
> On Oct 11, 2018, at 09:57, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>
> Or find an insider willing to carry your torch. And if there is no such
> person, maybe reconsider your torch.
>
> Volker
>
> Am 11.10.2018 um 16:25 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>
> “If you don’t like being an outsider, you have to play by our rules and
> become an insider.”
>
> And yeah, I can write a letter to my legislator. That doesn’t make me a
> Senator.
>
> --
> John Bambenek
>
> On Oct 11, 2018, at 09:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> Again. You are wrong.
>
> You, like anyone else, can join any number of ICANN groups.
> You choose not to.
>
> That’s your choice.
>
> Now you can try to twist that around so that you can tell people how
> you’ve been excluded, but the reality is that you haven’t – you’ve chosen
> that path.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>
> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>
>
> *From: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
> *Date: *Thursday 11 October 2018 at 14:57
> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
> *Cc: *Dotzero <dotzero at gmail.com>, RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Next Gen RDS - Update from Leadership
> Team
>
>
>
> “You can convince some insider to carry your concern while they deliberate
> in private.”
>
>
>
> That is exactly my point. You’ve excluded outsiders.
>
> --
>
> John Bambenek
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2018, at 04:55, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <
> michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>
> John
>
>
>
> That isn’t true. Every SO and AC within ICANN has representation. You and
> anyone else can channel your concerns via your respective constituency,
> stakeholder group or AC.
>
> Also as is normal with any GNSO Working Group the interim report and final
> report will be open for public comment.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Michele
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://www.blacknight.com/
>
> https://blacknight.blog/
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>
> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>
>
> *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
> John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Reply-To: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday 10 October 2018 at 23:50
> *To: *Dotzero <dotzero at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Next Gen RDS - Update from Leadership
> Team
>
>
>
> I did take notice that the new EPDP specifically excludes all outsiders
> thus ensuring that anyone who actually uses whois will not be represented.
>
> --
>
> John Bambenek
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2018, at 17:28, Dotzero <dotzero at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The proposed termination document reflects the reality of what has
> occurred. I'd like to thank everyone else for their efforts. I know that we
> had some disagreements and the process sometimes was painful.
>
>
>
> Michael Hammer
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM Anderson, Marc via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>
> Fellow Next Gen RDS members,
>
>
>
> In March of this year the RDS PDP leadership team canceled working group
> meetings, effectively putting the group on hold.  This decision was made
> because we heard from ICANN org that it was considering instituting a
> temporary policy that would greatly impact our work.  Out of respect for
> members’ time it didn’t make sense to continue deliberations.
>
>
>
> Since then, the ICANN board did approve a temporary specification (
> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/gtld-registration-data-specs-en).
> Subsequent to that, the GNSO council initiated an expedited PDP on that
> temporary specification (
> https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2018-07-19-en).
>
>
>
> Given all this, the RDS PDP leadership team feels it doesn’t make sense
> for the working group to continue and is recommending termination.  The
> GNSO PDP manual allows for termination by the working group and requires a
> written “Termination Summary” delivered to the GNSO council via the council
> liaison.  The manual provides “changing circumstances” as an example of a
> reason for termination which this certainly qualifies as.
>
>
>
> Attached you will find a proposed “Termination Summary” for the RDS PDP
> working group.  The leadership team plans to deliver by 12 October so the
> GNSO council can have it on their agenda for ICANN 63.  Please let the
> leadership team know if you have questions or feedback.
>
>
>
> Many thanks for your hard work on this project.
>
>
>
> Best,
> RDS Leadership team
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Volker A. Greimann
> General Counsel and Policy Manager
> KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH
>
> T: +49 6894 9396901
> F: +49 6894 9396851
> W: www.key-systems.net
>
> Key-systems is a company registered in Germany with Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken: CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registered Offices: Im Oberen Werk 1, DE-66386 St. Ingbert, Germany
>
> Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358.
> Registered Offices: 35-39 Moorgate, London, EC2R 6AR.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
> --
> Volker A. Greimann
> General Counsel and Policy Manager
> KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH
>
> T: +49 6894 9396901
> F: +49 6894 9396851
> W: www.key-systems.net
>
> Key-systems is a company registered in Germany with Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken: CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registered Offices: Im Oberen Werk 1, DE-66386 St. Ingbert, Germany
>
> Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358.
> Registered Offices: 35-39 Moorgate, London, EC2R 6AR.
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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