[gnso-rpm-wg] Mp3, Attendance, AC recording & AC Chat Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group
Terri Agnew
terri.agnew at icann.org
Wed Mar 1 18:53:06 UTC 2017
Dear All,
Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email. The MP3,
Adobe Connect recording and Adobe Connect chat below for the Review of all
Rights Protection Mechanisms (RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group call held
on Wednesday, 01 March 2017 at 17:00 UTC. Attendance of the call is posted
on agenda wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/YZ3DAw
MP3: https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-rpm-review-01mar17-en.mp3
Adobe Connect recording:
<https://participate.icann.org/p7748y84ny8/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=d2bb332eb83bd37e
112e25e7751c52e54fb922234e519726f89516ceebbbd6db>
https://participate.icann.org/p7748y84ny8/
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/>
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/
Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/wCWAAw
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Terri Agnew
Adobe Connect chat transcript for 01 March 2017:
Terri Agnew:Welcome to the Review of all Rights Protection Mechanisms
(RPMs) in all gTLDs PDP Working Group on Wednesday, 01 March 2017 at 17:00
UTC for 60 minutes
Terri Agnew:wiki agenda page:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_Y
Z3DAw
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_
YZ3DAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpC
IgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b
8&s=ytx-KSkSEb3EACsRZ-ayBuXn6ktuEO_OY9Via6NzMLI&e>
&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=yt
x-KSkSEb3EACsRZ-ayBuXn6ktuEO_OY9Via6NzMLI&e=
George Kirikos:Hi folks.
Elizabeth Featherman:Hello!
George Kirikos:Welcome Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Featherman:Thanks George!
Paul Tattersfield:Hi everyone
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello All
George Kirikos:Hey Paul & Maxim.
Martin Silva Valent:Hi all!
Paul Tattersfield:Hi George is your part of Canada ready fro spring yet?
George Kirikos:I think so, Paul, if the groundhogs are correct. :-)
Paul Tattersfield::)
Philip Corwin:Hello all, and welcome to our last WG meeting before
Copenhagen
Yuri Chumak:greetings
George Kirikos:Welcome Phil & Yuri.
Philip Corwin:Here in DC area it will be close to 80F today -- with
predictions of snow showers on friday morning. Crazy weather roller coaster.
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Note: there is a mistake in AGB - clearinghouse
should be replaced with CZDS in Module 5, Transition to delegation (to avoid
confusion with TMCH, which referenced in AGB 2012 as both Trademark
Clearinghouse and Clearinghouse) - page 5-15
Terri Agnew:everyone can scroll themselves
Philip Corwin:Great work by Mary on this document
Mary Wong:@Maxim - we will check and correct
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:+1 Phil
George Kirikos:IRT was unrepresentative (I recall Phil wasn't allowed to
join).
David McAuley (RySG):The Strawman Solution - sounds like a good film
Philip Corwin:There were complaints about IRT process that led to
establishment of STI-RT -- which adopted and refined some IRT
recommendations, while rejecting others, in my recollection. What's
important now is what is actually in the Appricant Guidebook.
Jeff Neuman:@George - The IRT was a group set up of professional IP
experts on proposing a set of recommendations to the Board. Although I was
on from the Registries and Jon Nevett from the Registrars, and Mary Wong at
the time with the NCUC, it was not intended to be "representative" as you
would define it. But that does not take away from the work that was done.
George Kirikos:There's an echo (turn off speakers).
Edward Morris:It would be iteresting to find out how we got from point a
to point b. And whether we want to do a U turn.
George Kirikos:+1 Martin
GraceM: are there any examples of design marks in the tmch?
Mary Wong:@Grace, the Working Group agreed to follow up with Deloitte to
clarify how they handle design marks, and examples they can give
George Kirikos:You're on the right track, Martin.
Edward Morris:+1 Martin. Be interesting to know how this happened
Pascal Boehner:But design or figurative marks also deserve TM protection
as mere word marks; they might have another extent and scope of protection
which is to be looked at. But there is no reason not to protect them
GraceM:thanks @ Mary
Philip Corwin:@Jeff--again, while the chronology is useful for
understanding the history and source of the developed RPMs, our WG focus is
on what is actually in the final AG, whether ithey are being properly
implemented, and whether they are effective and balanced. Suggestions for
any modifications can be new, or can be based on historic sources including
as the IRT.
Georges Nahitchevansky:Has this, in fact, been an actual issue with the
TMCH (i.e., on the level of abuse) or is this anecdotal issue -- and thus a
theoretical discussion
George Kirikos:That's why it'd be nice to know how they handle specific
examples, e.g. CARS, PARENTS, DEALHUNTER, MUSIC, the letter 'A', etc.
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2017-February/001064.html
George Kirikos:they = TMCH
George Kirikos:All those shouldn't be acceptable, if we stick to the
strict interpretation of the STI.
Martin Silva Valent:I agree I might be off here, I 've might missed a
debate. I won't impose my impression.
Mary Wong:Do the TMCH Guidelines published by Deloitte assist in
explaining how word elements in design marks are handled?
Edward Morris:Small team seems t be called for here.
Edward Morris:We don't have enough time to go in depth in the main group.
George Kirikos:There's also the related issue of whether the published
guidelines are being followed (which is hard to know, if we're not allowed
to view the list of recordals in public).
Susan Payne:I'm not sure this is the time for a small group. arent we
still asking deloitte questions and planning to meet with them
Mary Wong:@Martin, does 5.2.1 (on page 2 of this table) of the TMCH
Guidelines help you evaluate your question?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):in AGB, 1. PURPOSE OF CLEARINGHOUSE, 1.4, Trademark
Clearinghouse Service Provider may provide ancillary services, as long as
those services and any data used for those services are kept separate from
the Clearinghouse database. Do we know if additional services of TMCH are
kept separated?
Bradley Silver:+1 Susan - let's get feedback from Deloitte first on this
question.
Mary Wong:@Maxim, I believe the only ancillary service being offered is
the Ongoing Claims Service
Pascal Boehner:+1 Susan
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Agree Susan. I think it's
premature.
Martin Silva Valent:Mary, I'm basing my doubts on that text :-)
Georges Nahitchevansky:I agree. let's get infor from Deloitte first and
then decide if this a real issue to be addressed and debated
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):and the incentive of
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.trademark-2Dclearing
house.com_content_blocking-2Dmechanisms-2Dtmch-2Dclients-2Ddpml
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.trademark-2Dclearin
ghouse.com_content_blocking-2Dmechanisms-2Dtmch-2Dclients-2Ddpml&d=DwICaQ&c=
FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0
AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=X5gyXfELMYQ7sV
FL4BeUDAi-NNULYEOFgC3K_HAb5V4&e>
&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=X5
gyXfELMYQ7sVFL4BeUDAi-NNULYEOFgC3K_HAb5V4&e= ? it is not in AGB
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:I think the first question is
ask Deloitte if there is indeed a discrepancy and what they can tell us
about it. at least we would be able to know where to start digging.
Edward Morris:Here's a chance to get into substance. Deloitte answers and
a small groupcan run concurrently.
Mark Massey:+1
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):also AGB, Trademark Clearinghouse 1.5 have some
incorrect reference to the policy process ...Before material changes are
made to the Clearinghouse functions, they will be reviewed through the ICANN
public participation model.
Mary Wong:@Maxim, yes that sentence is in the AGB and has been added to
the end of this table.
Paul Tattersfield:should read geographical indications not geographical
indicators
Mary Wong:@Paul, oops, thanks for catching that, you're right
Rebecca L Tushnet:Could I join the small group on design marks? Sorry I
was delayed in joining.
George Kirikos:So, 3.6 might include stock ticker symbols, if someone had
a financial TLD and wanted to offer that in a sunrise.
George Kirikos:*6 to mute/unmute
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Also 2.1 of TM Clearinghouse : 2.1 The selection of
Trademark Clearinghouse Service Provider(s) will be subject to predetermined
criteria, but the foremost considerations will be the ability to store,
authenticate, validate and disseminate the data at the highest level of
technical stabilityand security without interference with the integrity or
timeliness of the registration process or registry operations. ... in
reality we saw some glitches and non working conditions of TMCH ... there is
not mechanism to ensure that TMCH has to stick to " the highest level of
technical stabilityand security without interference with the integrity or
timeliness" , after the initial contract execution with ICANN ... basically
SLA of some sort and annual review of technical issues
Philip Corwin:This co-chair, speaking personally, believes that we are
going to have to decide that some questions are good enough and leave
detailed discussion only to thse few questions on which there is significant
concern with the wording within the WG. If we discuss each Q in detail we
won't reach Sunrise and Claim Notices until late spring or summer, and we
should do all we can to avoid falling far behind on our schedule so long as
it does not result in any corner cutting that undermines the integrity of
our work. We can discuss all this in CPH.
Terri Agnew:as a reminder to active your mic on the AC, select the
telehpone icon top tool bar and follow the prompt or send me a private AC
chat and I can have the operator dial out to you.
Susan Payne:+1 Kristine
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):also 2.4.4 of the same TM Clearinghouse part of AGB,
includes requirements to customer service availability... which were not
met and need the same review process as 2.1
Massimo Vittori:I am sorry I ma not able to join the converstation
George Kirikos:There's no international consensus that GIs should have
protection, so that's likely the concern, e.g.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_G
eographical-5Findication-23Differences-5Fin-5Fphilosophy
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_
Geographical-5Findication-23Differences-5Fin-5Fphilosophy&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3P
Jp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4
xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=DaVAutBtkh0OuXNy9G_Pv
KtfG60TivduIArtUWYIikk&e>
&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=Da
VAutBtkh0OuXNy9G_PvKtfG60TivduIArtUWYIikk&e=
Paul Tattersfield:The TMCH already caters for marks other than registered
tradmarks marks from states 6ter etc.
Mary Wong:@Kathy, staff will consult the transcript when that is available
to make sure Kristine's clarification and John's earlier question are
accurately captured.
George Kirikos:Champagne.wine was obtained the French organization. Do we
know if it was via a GI in the TMCH and sunrise? Or some other way?
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__whois.domaintools.com_ch
ampagne.wine
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__whois.domaintools.com_c
hampagne.wine&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2d
XAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDan
oUtd09b8&s=UfVkfodiyppOlGt9LrR195G20tFK6Qw3LKPj_8xVKNA&e>
&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=_4ykVYCNKhxycZFYfXClGpFutuKwNDkTDanoUtd09b8&s=Uf
VkfodiyppOlGt9LrR195G20tFK6Qw3LKPj_8xVKNA&e=
George Kirikos:insert *by above
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:George, I don't think the TMCH
labels as mark as "GI" or not. It
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services: It's a word, in a database.
Mike Rodenbaugh:Have we asked Deloitte how many TM owners took advantage
of the TM+50 feature, and at what quantity?
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:If it passes the TM test, it's
in, if not, it's not.
Pascal Boehner:Even if there ist no international consensus: if
"champagne" is protected in France as a GI, it shall get the same protection
as a national French TM, even if in other jurisdictions, it would not be
accepted
Mary Wong:@George, the criteria for inclusion in the TMCH has been
registered TMs, court-validated marks, and marks protected by statute or
treaty. This has been the case through various versions of the AGB and
dating back to the IRT.
Paul Tattersfield:@Kristine The TMCH already accepts marks other than
registered trademarks - eg marks protected by statue or treaty
George Kirikos:Thanks Mary.
Pascal Boehner:+1 Paul
Edward Morris:That would be great
Mike Rodenbaugh:That's what I was asking too
Edward Morris:Thanks Mary - that would be helpful. Let's see what we got
back.
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:@Paul, yes, but then the
submitter submits the statute or treaty
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:If each line item in the DB
has an appended TM, statute, or treaty, then the question is really just "do
we have any unsupported marks"?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Are we going to make a poll to collect questions for
Deloitte?
Edward Morris:Thanks Kathy and Phil
Paul Tattersfield:Kristine so what's wrong with asking / discussing for
similar verification for Geographical INdications?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I suggested poll instead of e-mails - so it is more
visible to participants
Mary Wong:Q&A on Previously Abused Labels with/from Deloitte: "How many
TMCH records include a TM+50 list; and how many are on this list on average?
How many registrations were made for entries on the TM+50 list?The abused
domain name labels can only be added in the event that a submitted trademark
record has been verified. In this respect, 209 UDRP cases have been
submitted to the trademark records linked to 209 TMCH records. These URDP
cases cover in total 375 abused domain name labels. "
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:@Paul. Nothing. Every item
should have a validation/verification. TM, statute or treaty.
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:@Paul, it's an excel
spreadsheet. As long as a word can check the box, it's in. Unless we're
saying someone is not properly checking a box, then I'm still not sure what
the problem is.
Paul Tattersfield:Is there a box to even check? Should there be? etc.
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Yes. EVERY entry has to be
validated
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:There is no "claiming to be a
GI so I skip validation" step that I'm aware of.
Edward Morris:Thanks Mary. Very useful. So TM+1.79 may be the average, if
I undrrstand things correctly.
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:LOL Ed.
Edward Morris:@Kristine. My new proposal. I always liked decimal points.
:)
George Kirikos:Identical match for inclusion. But, I can see where a
'fuzzy match' might have some value, for informational purposes.
George Kirikos:Thanks for the history, though, Kathy.
Mary Wong:@Ed, my understanding is that a TM owner can submit 1 label for
various TMs in one UDRP proceeding, or several for the same.
Edward Morris:Thanks Mary. So we really don't have the numbers I'm looking
for.
Mary Wong:The question of "identical match" has attracted a lot of public
comments, on both "sides", throughout the whole process of developing the
TMCH - from the IRT to STI to the various AGB versions.
Mike Rodenbaugh:+1 Susan - this is a key issue for discussion
George Kirikos:Fuzzy matches would deter some of the intentional
typosquatting.
George Kirikos:But, I can see how some less informed people might feel a
chilling effect. Sophisticated domain name owners wouldn't be deterred, but
not everyone is equally educated.
Mike Rodenbaugh:+1 George, there would be some deterrence. Chilling
effect is debatable/unproven
Mary Wong:Sorry, what will the sub group be doing?
Pascal Boehner:+ 1 Susan & Mike: "Identical match" is fundamental, should
be discussed by the whole WG
George Kirikos:@Mike: I think for the registrant warning, it would need to
be different language if it was an exact match, vs if it was just a "fuzzy"
match.
George Kirikos:(for sunrise, no rights to "fuzzy" versions of a mark)
Georges Nahitchevansky:I agree that the identical match issues is one to
look into. There have been situations where TMCH has taken an overly narrow
view on the issue, which then has implications re sunrise etc.
Mary Wong:Note that the Analysis Group's Final Report on the TMCH has some
observations on this question as well.
Edward Morris:+1 Mary. Was useful.
Susan Payne:where are we getting the charter Qs out to?
Mark Massey:Perhaps it would be useful to look at all of these questions
from the perspective of someone trying to start a business not just existing
trademart holders
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:agree Susan...are we
publishing something?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):could we try to request IBM person to be there?
Jeff Neuman:I would also note that the first hour and a half conflict with
the subsequent procedures working group
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):the reason is, if the deny it, we might think that
the service is not important for IBM
John McElwaine:@Jeff maybe we can push it back
Jeff Neuman:we tried, but ICANN could not move either meeting
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):we will need IBM representative to avoid Deloitte
answering each time - we need to check it with IBM
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Maxim, do we have technical
questions?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):yes
George Kirikos:Perhaps an email reminding folks of the times, URLs for
remote participation, and times in different time zones might help.
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):it is related to AGB and TMCH , standards of service
(downtimes and customer service quality) - it is referenced in TM
Clearinghouse part of AGB
Mary Wong:@George, we will send out the information
George Kirikos:(since the URLs for remote participation are different than
our usual link)
George Kirikos:Thanks Mary.
Mary Wong:@Maxim, it is probably too late to invite IBM unless they are
already planning to be in Copenhagen (which I believe they are not). But we
have sent them a few questions and are awaiting answers, and we can also
invite them to a future call.
Jeff Neuman:@KAthy - take comments on email
Jeff Neuman:we are thinking
Philip Corwin:We shall do our best as co-chairs
George Kirikos:March 22?
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:Maxim, is that related to the
TMCH as an RPM and a charter question or more about the integration of TMCH
with contracted parties, which might be a better fit for SubPro?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Mary, as I understand we asked about it during 22nd
FEB 2017.
George Kirikos:March 29th, then.
Susan Payne:I'd like to have a substantive discussion on some of these
open issues - matching rules
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Kristine, it is about material for those who will
look into AGB and TMCH intersections
Kristine Dorrain - Amazon Registry Services:+1 susan
David McAuley (RySG):Thanks all, good bye
George Kirikos:Bye folks.
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):thanks all , safe travels
Martin Silva Valent:bye bye !
Philip Corwin:bye all. See you in CPH
Martin Silva Valent:see u there
Paul Tattersfield:bye all
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