[GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Mon Jul 20 21:04:30 UTC 2020

Just want to point out that we spoke about this Proposal for 25 mins (almost 1/3 of our meeting) last week.  And at the end of the discussion Jason himself said “I agree that I said before that I stand on my position to everybody that we don't have consensus and that's what's that's what's troubling. We can't even get something out of, out of the gate here, which is a very important issue, but I agree, we move on. Great. Thank you.”

Not sure why we would revisit the topic & spend even more time agreeing there’s not consensus on this.

Our remit in this review was to a) identify whether the comments provided new perspectives (Thursday’s discussion revealed no material new info, just the same arguments that have been made before), or b) whether there was widespread opposition/support not already considered (Thursday’s discussion, again, did not offer a new, widespread opinion not already considered).

In the end, we could go round-and-round on several of these issues for time unending, but the GNSO has been clear that such unending debate is not acceptable.

Cyntia King

O:  +1 816.633.7647

C:  +1 818.209.6088

From: Michael Karanicolas <mkaranicolas at gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 3:32 PM
To: Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo at aim.be>
Cc: Jason Schaeffer <jason at esqwire.com>; cking at modernip.com; Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund at icann.org>; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

I agree with Jason that the issue merits further discussion. I had a conflict last week, and was unable to join the call, but I also did not get the impression that the transparency issue was thoroughly discussed. This is an issue of central importance to the working group's mandate and, frankly, its legitimacy. There were substantive issues raised in the comments which were not discussed, and which warrant the group's consideration.

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 3:21 PM Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo at aim.be <mailto:marie.pattullo at aim.be> > wrote:

Thank you for the suggestion Jason; however, I agree with Cynthia.

As stated in the Initial Report itself:

“Some Working Group members suspected that trademark owners may have the potential to abuse Sunrise due to TMCH’s acceptance of non-standard character claim marks and common/dictionary words, as well as the broad scope of registration within the TMCH. However, there is a lack of concrete evidence to substantiate that suspicion”.  (pages 45 & 42).

(Emphasis added).

As discussed re all other individual proposals, at this stage we are not discussing substance but whether there is sufficient support to put them forward for a consensus call. There was neither sufficient support in our Working Group, nor in the public comments, for this proposal. 

I also have a different reading of Deloitte’s comment: to me

"Deloitte is taking this opportunity to share its point of view on Individual Proposal #7 that the TMCH should transition from a closed database to an open and searchable database....” 

reads that they are quoting the proposal; either way, as a service provider I don’t think their voice has weight here, especially as they (rightly) go on to say that:

“...Deloitte wants to emphasize that ICANN is the owner of the TMCH database and that not Deloitte, but IBM operates the TMDB. In this regard, it is up to ICANN and the Community to take the ultimate decision to move from a closed to an open database”. 

We’ve discussed this issue at (great) length over the past years and, agreeing with Cynthia, this is not the best use of the limited time we have left.

Kind regards

Marie

From: GNSO-RPM-WG <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of Jason Schaeffer
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:09 PM
To: cking at modernip.com <mailto:cking at modernip.com> ; 'Julie Hedlund' <julie.hedlund at icann.org <mailto:julie.hedlund at icann.org> >; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Hi Cyntia,

Question 7 deserves the same treatment as other questions and the public comments should be reviewed.   We were side tracked at the end of the call last week and didn’t get to the merits.

There's a documented problem of abuse and the ONLY opposition is based on the concern that cybersquatters will themselves abuse the open TMCH.   No one said they don't want oversight of the TMCH -- at least not openly.  

Moreover, if you review your notes and the comments there’s support and room for a compromise.  Others have seemed to indicate a willingness to solve the problem.

Jason

From: cking at modernip.com <mailto:cking at modernip.com>  <cking at modernip.com <mailto:cking at modernip.com> > 
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 2:01 PM
To: Jason Schaeffer <jason at esqwire.com <mailto:jason at esqwire.com> >; 'Julie Hedlund' <julie.hedlund at icann.org <mailto:julie.hedlund at icann.org> >; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> 
Subject: RE: [GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Hi All,

Respectfully, I believe this would be a waste of our remaining time.

The Proposal had significant opposition (at least as much opposition as support).  As well, consensus has never been reached in discussions by the full working group or (2) subgroups.

As consensus is needed to change an RPM that is itself the result of consensus discussions; and

As we haven’t been close to consensus in the working group, sub-groups or public comments; then

I suggest we complete our review concentrating on Proposals where consensus may still be possible.

Cyntia King

O:  +1 816.633.7647

C:  +1 818.209.6088

From: GNSO-RPM-WG <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of Jason Schaeffer
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:18 AM
To: Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund at icann.org <mailto:julie.hedlund at icann.org> >; gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> 
Subject: Re: [GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Hi all, 

In advance of tomorrow’s call, I am requesting that we continue discussion on the merits of TMCH Question #7.    Upon reflection, at the end of the last WG call, we neither discussed the public comments nor debated the underlying merits of the positions regarding opening of the TMCH.

As we are all aware, we are not debating whether or not there has been abuse of the TMCH.  The only question is how much abuse has occurred.  

Further, those opposed to opening the TMCH DB to oversight appear to object on the basis that cybersquatters and wrongdoers will abuse the newly opened DB.   It does not appear that anyone rejects having oversight of the TMCH or an ability to ensure that it is operating correctly (without abuse).    Moreover, Deliotte itself commented that the TMCH should transition from a closed to open and searchable DB with the understanding that it is up to the ICANN Community to make the determination.   I recall we had discussed some compromise positions that were being considered as a way to bring oversight while protecting against cybersquatters.

Accordingly, I request that we be prepared to continue the discussion on the merits of TMCH Question 7 and find a workable position as a WG to review the TMCH and avoid abuse.

Regards,

Jason

From: GNSO-RPM-WG <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> > On Behalf Of Julie Hedlund
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> 
Subject: [GNSO-RPM-WG] REMINDER: Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Dear RPM WG members, 

As a reminder, please find the updated proposed agenda and materials below for the full WG meeting Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC for 90 minutes.

Kind regards,

Mary, Ariel, and Julie

From: GNSO-RPM-WG <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces at icann.org> > on behalf of Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund at icann.org <mailto:julie.hedlund at icann.org> >
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 3:10 PM
To: "gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> " <gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rpm-wg at icann.org> >
Subject: [GNSO-RPM-WG] Proposed Agenda for RPMs PDP WG Meeting - 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC

Dear RPM WG members, 

Please find the updated proposed agenda and materials below for the full WG meeting Tuesday, 21 July 2020 at 13:00 UTC for 90 minutes.

Draft Proposed Agenda:

1.	Review Agenda and Updates to Statements of Interest
2.	Revisit Discussion of TMCH Proposals #4 [docs.google.com] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1QTt-5Fm5qdzoalRDcIUED01ur-2DyJgODCex8bj-5F-2DaKO7fI_edit-23gid-3D722865735&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=adDIs0WEx_lLwFfrsdovxTYY8GkRHo5ibc8SR3Npdh8&m=h-YCBbNQ0yFiF6hJviEdwDqUSzbkMEsFvHqD1z4Ix4A&s=71WyjyE0FtdOQ-oBUlPy1zQhKqCIXHZte-NxaS3p7BU&e=>  and #5 [docs.google.com] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1QTt-5Fm5qdzoalRDcIUED01ur-2DyJgODCex8bj-5F-2DaKO7fI_edit-23gid-3D1604477707&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=adDIs0WEx_lLwFfrsdovxTYY8GkRHo5ibc8SR3Npdh8&m=h-YCBbNQ0yFiF6hJviEdwDqUSzbkMEsFvHqD1z4Ix4A&s=X--O_xLLIbaYclLWQ4pesNriqcBfp-AOHvDXsW1FmDI&e=> , see the Public Comment Review Tool at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QTt_m5qdzoalRDcIUED01ur-yJgODCex8bj_-aKO7fI/edit?usp=sharing [docs.google.com] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QTt_m5qdzoalRDcIUED01ur-yJgODCex8bj_-aKO7fI/edit?usp=sharing__;!!PtGJab4!sweUru0Zq__8MpVGAXJZqoIsAwrRgtO7K4ya1bssd0_iehbe0JkxZID5z67DJZ9YvzpJBRmKzw$>  and the table of contents on the first tab; see also the message on the email distribution list at: [GNSO-RPM-WG] Simplified language to bring together individual TMCH #4  <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2020-July/004344.html> & #5 proposals   Paul Tattersfield
3.	Review of Overarching Questions #1 and #3 (skipping #2) and Additional Overarching Questions #1, #2, and #3, see the Public Comment Review Tool at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wke2krmhV2tNPNhvIOskAlLVraWp-88mqzScCtj01fw/edit?usp=sharing [docs.google.com] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wke2krmhV2tNPNhvIOskAlLVraWp-88mqzScCtj01fw/edit?usp=sharing__;!!PtGJab4!sweUru0Zq__8MpVGAXJZqoIsAwrRgtO7K4ya1bssd0_iehbe0JkxZID5z67DJZ9YvzqIpK5g9w$>  and the table of contents on the first tab
4.	Review of General Content Questions #1 and #2 (time permitting), see the Public Comment Review Tool at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wke2krmhV2tNPNhvIOskAlLVraWp-88mqzScCtj01fw/edit?usp=sharing [docs.google.com] <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wke2krmhV2tNPNhvIOskAlLVraWp-88mqzScCtj01fw/edit?usp=sharing__;!!PtGJab4!sweUru0Zq__8MpVGAXJZqoIsAwrRgtO7K4ya1bssd0_iehbe0JkxZID5z67DJZ9YvzqIpK5g9w$>  and the table of contents on the first tab
5.	AOB

Best Regards,

Mary, Julie, Ariel

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