[Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?

joseph alhadeff joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
Mon Sep 1 12:59:14 UTC 2014


Martin:

I think its a safety valve related to when there is a disagreement as to 
the sense of the room and direction of consensus.  It is also should not 
be considered a right to call a poll, but rather to request for a poll 
to be called...  Perhaps further caveats around the language would help.

Finally I am also OK with withdrawing the proposed edit related to 
linguistic or cultural expression and potential misunderstanding as my 
reservation was only as to form (what would be the best location for the 
comment) not substance.

Joe


On 9/1/2014 8:47 AM, Martin Boyle wrote:
>
> I agree with Joe that we probably need to have a clean draft to work 
> on -- it is getting hard to read.
>
> For Joe's comments I'm ok with all *except* the comment (j13) that 
> "Members should also be able to request the officers to conduct a 
> poll."  That seems to open for anyone to jump a vote without allowing 
> "adversaries" to find a happy compromise.  I think it could be a 
> barrier to getting to real consensus.  Polls should be the exception 
> and their use justified.  As I've said before, I do not like voting in 
> this framework:  while I recognise it might be a necessary evil, it 
> does undermine the consensus-development process.
>
> Cheers
>
> Martin
>
> *From:*internal-cg-bounces at icann.org 
> [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *joseph alhadeff
> *Sent:* 31 August 2014 12:28
> *To:* internal-cg at icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>
> I have added some proposed edits and comments.  I agree that we have 
> too many termsthat have too flexible an interpretation.  I also think 
> the document is lost in the comments.  Can we move a next draft 
> forward that tries to incorporate some of these comments and allows us 
> to better consider flow and duplication?
>
> On 8/31/2014 4:52 AM, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:
>
>     Dear All,
>
>     Now that we have reconciled on RFP as announced by Alissa to have
>     been finalized
>
>     I want to come back to come back to Consensus Building.
>
>     I the meantime I have amended the proposals that I made based on
>     some comments and attached here for your kind consideration as ka v3
>
>     Regards
>
>     KAVOUSS
>
>     2014-08-30 23:10 GMT+02:00 Martin Boyle
>     <Martin.Boyle at nominet.org.uk <mailto:Martin.Boyle at nominet.org.uk>>:
>
>     Alissa,
>
>     Thanks for this: I can't say any of these changes really make much
>     difference to the text as far as I am concerned so, although I
>     still would prefer the original wording I'm ok to accept them
>     all.  I'd note that on page 2 the first sentence in the first
>     paragraph under I does not read right to me:  should it read
>     "...and that all interested parties **should** get involved..."?
>     But please do not hold this up this draft any further on my account.
>
>     On your "separate point," I would agree that there needs to be a
>     certain time lapse between drafts to allow for all comments to
>     come in.  Two days can actually mean only a day and a half with
>     time-zones and accidents on time of posting.
>
>     I'd go back to a point that NZ-Keith made about decisions on
>     conference calls and re-think it for discussion drafts -- that
>     there should be time for proposals and counter-proposals on any
>     draft, followed by a complete clean copy incorporating any
>     amendments from the discussion. The important stage is how long a
>     clean draft is on the table without any further comments before it
>     is adopted:  could we make it 3 days for this phase (unless all
>     protagonists in the discussion have agreed with the suggested
>     compromise), which allows for peoples' absences or travel schedules?
>
>     But more important is, let's try not to rush from one draft to
>     another unless there is a good reason (like the page is getting
>     too cluttered to read)?
>
>     And let us all also remember that we all have our own views and
>     that these will often be at odds:  when we propose a change, there
>     should be a decent time for others to consider this idea and to
>     formulate a response.  I have been in the position where I have
>     been drafting a commentary on one draft when the next has dropped
>     into the box: very frustrating!  But also, this is not very
>     conducive to coherent discussion.
>
>     Best
>
>     Martin
>
>     *From:*internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>     <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>
>     [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>     <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Alissa Cooper
>     *Sent:* 30 August 2014 19:13
>     *To:* Kavouss Arasteh; Coordination Group
>
>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>
>     Kavouss, all,
>
>     Attached and in dropbox are v14-alc-ka-alc and
>     v14-alc-ka-alc-clean. These contain the changes suggested by
>     Kavouss and the "light-handed" compromise suggested by Milton. As
>     soon as we get the link to the centralized information portal from
>     Alice (which we need on page 1 of the RFP), we'll get the
>     secretariat to post this version on the web site and make an
>     announcement.
>
>     On a separate note, it might make sense to spend a little time at
>     the Sept 6 meeting talking about expectations for people's
>     response times to emails, document reviews, etc. As I have already
>     noted on this list, in my opinion allowing at least 48 hours for
>     responses during the week and 72 hours for responses over a
>     weekend is justified by the fact that we are all busy people
>     volunteering our time for this activity. In the case of this
>     particular document, the edits from Kavouss arrived in my inbox at
>     5:30am in my time zone on Friday, while I was asleep. I woke up a
>     few hours later, answered some other emails (since I knew we
>     wouldn't have the portal link ready before I got on my flights to
>     Turkey) and left for the airport to travel to Istanbul at 9:00am.
>     I spent 24 of the 26 hours since then in transit. If people expect
>     faster response times, that is something we should discuss as a group.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Alissa
>
>     On 8/30/14, 5:36 AM, "Kavouss Arasteh" <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>     <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Dear Alissa,
>
>         Please advise whether or not after several support to my
>         proposal as contained/ mentioned in rev 2 that I did send you
>         three days ago , v14 is now amended or not
>
>         Regards
>
>         Kavouss
>
>         2014-08-30 14:31 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh
>         <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>:
>
>         Dear All,
>
>         My rev 2 doc. relating to amenfment to v 14 of Draft RFP has
>         not been taken into account
>
>         I think it is not fair withourt examining a proposal  to ignor it
>
>         kavouss
>
>         ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>         From: *Kavouss Arasteh* <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>         <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>
>         Date: 2014-08-30 14:30 GMT+02:00
>         Subject: Fwd: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>         To: Coordination Group <Internal-cg at icann.org
>         <mailto:Internal-cg at icann.org>>
>
>         Dear All,
>
>         My rev 2 doc. relating to amenfment to v 14 of Draft RFP has
>         not been taken into account
>
>         I think it is not fair withourt examining a proposal it should
>         be ignored
>
>         Kavouss
>
>         ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>         From: *joseph alhadeff* <joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
>         <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>>
>         Date: 2014-08-30 11:35 GMT+02:00
>         Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>
>         To: Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>         <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>
>
>         Off list:
>
>         I've lost a bit of the thread...
>
>         Which of your proposed edits s the one that hasn't been
>         properly accounted for?
>
>         Joe
>
>         On 8/30/2014 3:31 AM, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:
>
>             Dear All,
>
>             Dear Alissa
>
>             What Milton agreed was on consensus building process and
>             not on RFP .
>
>             What we are talking here is RFP. I have made some changes
>             which are not of editorial nature but essential.
>
>             There are inconsistencies in the v14 as I have indicated.
>
>             I have sent that twice and I request to be considered
>             before being published as draft .
>
>             I am not in the little group nevertheless the amendment
>             that I have proposed are essebntial.
>
>             However, should every body agree that the draft should be
>             published I have no problem provided that everybody
>             understand that the amendments proposed by me are still
>             valid and to be considered.
>
>             I have informed in different manner
>
>             Regards
>
>             Kavouss
>
>             2014-08-30 9:29 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh
>             <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>             <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>:
>
>             Dear All,
>
>             Dear Alissa
>
>             what Milton agreed was on consensus building process.
>
>             What we are talking here is RFP. I have made some changes
>             which are not of editorial nature but essential.
>
>             There are inconsistencies in the v14 as I have indicated.
>
>             I have sent that twice and I request to be considered
>             before being published as draft .
>
>             I am not in the little group nevertheless the amendment
>             that I have proposed are essebntial.
>
>             However, should every body agree that the draft should be
>             published I have no problem provided that everybody
>             understand that the amendments proposed by me are still
>             valid and to be considered.
>
>             I have informed in different manner
>
>             Regards
>
>             Kavouss
>
>             2014-08-30 7:06 GMT+02:00 Paul Wilson <pwilson at apnic.net
>             <mailto:pwilson at apnic.net>>:
>
>                 I am keen to publish the draft, as a draft, soon
>                 please.  It doesn't need to be perfected before we do
>                 that.
>
>                 For the record I agree with Kavouss' suggestions, as
>                 amended by Milton, and happy for these to be included
>
>                 thanks
>
>                 Paul.
>
>                 ________________________________________________________________________
>                 Paul Wilson, Director-General, APNIC <dg at apnic.net
>                 <mailto:dg at apnic.net>>
>                 http://www.apnic.net +61 7 3858 3100
>                 <tel:%2B61%207%203858%203100>
>
>                 See you at APNIC 38! http://conference.apnic.net/38
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                 On 30 Aug 2014, at 4:26 am, Kavouss Arasteh
>                 <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>                 <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                 > Milton,
>                 > Thank you again for yr analysis
>                 > Yes I could make a consensus with your last suggestion
>                 > Pls go ahead and I thank you for that.
>                 > By the way do you know any ting about a book
>                 published in 70 s about that group?
>                 > tks and have a nice week-end ,if I do not hear from you
>                 > Kavouss
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > 2014-08-29 20:12 GMT+02:00 Mohamed El Bashir
>                 <mbashir at mbash.net <mailto:mbashir at mbash.net>>:
>                 > After reviewing Kavouss RFP updates, I prefer to
>                 keep the text " light coordination role" and I am fine
>                 with the rest of the updates .
>                 >
>                 > We suppose to finished and published the RFP
>                 yesterday, I propose move ahead and publish the latest
>                 version as agreed before the IGF.
>                 >
>                 > Kind Regards,
>                 > Mohamed
>                 >
>                 > On 29 Aug 2014, at 19:47, Kavouss Arasteh
>                 <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>                 <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>> wrote:
>                 >
>                 >> Dear Manal
>                 >> ,
>                 >> I am not pointing toward any one who made the
>                 suggestion that the adjective " Light " being added to
>                 the word or term " Coordination "
>                 >> I am just saysing that ICG tasks . interalia, is to
>                 coordinate the activities .
>                 >> This does not any thing to do with TOP down or
>                 button up process .Just it does not feet. It give the
>                 impression that the activities of ICCG on this matter
>                 is a light activitiwes and not a complete and in-depth
>                 >> Tks
>                 >> Kavouss
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> 2014-08-29 19:10 GMT+02:00 Manal Ismail
>                 <manal at tra.gov.eg <mailto:manal at tra.gov.eg>>:
>                 >> This was not the intention of course .. I have
>                 inserted this clause "in order to help ICG maintain
>                 its light coordination role" as I thought 2 things
>                 would make it more convincing for non-operational
>                 parties to work through the operational communities
>                 processes:
>                 >>
>                 >> -       to make sure the ICG does not have a
>                 top-down decision-making authority, and
>                 >>
>                 >> -       to make sure their contributions are
>                 considered early within the process, and directly
>                 discussed with the relevant party
>                 >>
>                 >> Just thought to clarify, but I'm flexible should
>                 colleagues feel it does not serve the purpose of the
>                 first bullet ..
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Kind Regards
>                 >>
>                 >> --Manal
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> From: internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>
>                 [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
>                 Kavouss Arasteh
>                 >> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 6:45 PM
>                 >> To: Milton L Mueller
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Cc: Coordination Group
>                 >> Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Dear Milton,
>                 >>
>                 >> Thank you very much for your kind response .You are
>                 among the most knowledgeable and competent as far as I
>                 understand the exchange of message.
>                 >>
>                 >> Pls kindly note that the term LIGHT before
>                 coordination, weakenes our actions .It could be
>                 interpreted that the coordination actions that we
>                 undertake is not sufficiently serious as it is
>                 qualified by the adjective LIGHT.
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Would it cause any difficulty that we delete that
>                 and just refer to coordination without any qualification.
>                 >>
>                 >> Regards
>                 >>
>                 >> Kavouss
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> 2014-08-29 15:54 GMT+02:00 Milton L Mueller
>                 <mueller at syr.edu <mailto:mueller at syr.edu>>:
>                 >>
>                 >> My opinions regarding Kavouss's proposed changes:
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Would prefer to keep "light" in there.
>                 >>
>                 >> OK to remove the word "only" from the paragraph on
>                 Comments
>                 >>
>                 >> OK to replace "direct" with "forward"
>                 >>
>                 >> OK to replace "encourages" with "urges"
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Milton L Mueller
>                 >>
>                 >> Laura J and L. Douglas Meredith Professor
>                 >>
>                 >> Syracuse University School of Information Studies
>                 >>
>                 >> http://faculty.ischool.syr.edu/mueller/
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> From: internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>
>                 [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
>                 Martin Boyle
>                 >> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 8:46 AM
>                 >> To: Kavouss Arasteh; Daniel Karrenberg
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Cc: Coordination Group
>                 >> Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Thanks Alissa for your work on this.  I'm sure we
>                 could continue word-smithing this for a long time, and
>                 I'm happy to go.
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Kavouss's comment on light:  I like the term as it
>                 reminds everyone that we are not planning to play the
>                 autocrats. But if non-native English speakers find the
>                 meaning obscure I'm ok without.
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Cheers
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Martin
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> From: internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>
>                 [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org
>                 <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of
>                 Kavouss Arasteh
>                 >> Sent: 29 August 2014 13:32
>                 >> To: Daniel Karrenberg
>                 >> Cc: Coordination Group
>                 >> Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] RFP - publishable draft?
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> Dear Alissa,
>                 >>
>                 >> Dear All,
>                 >>
>                 >> I suggest some small amendments to make various
>                 parts of the text consistent with each other
>                 >>
>                 >> See attachment
>                 >>
>                 >> Kavouss  the l
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> 2014-08-29 13:37 GMT+02:00 Daniel Karrenberg
>                 <daniel.karrenberg at ripe.net
>                 <mailto:daniel.karrenberg at ripe.net>>:
>                 >>
>                 >> On 28.08.14 23:36 , Alissa Cooper wrote:
>                 >> > ...
>                 >>
>                 >> >
>                 >> > Are there any objections to publishing this as a
>                 draft (and having the
>                 >> > secretariat host it on our web site and make an
>                 announcement about its
>                 >> > existence) by Sept 1?
>                 >>
>                 >> I support publishing this as a daft with Elise's
>                 corrections.
>                 >>
>                 >> Daniel
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> _______________________________________________
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>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >>
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