[Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
WUKnoben
wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de
Wed Sep 10 19:53:14 UTC 2014
Dear all,
attached please find my remaining amendments with the following explanations regarding some of them:
a.. 4.a. last paragraph: I’ve inserted “The selection is done by a majority vote.”
Rationale: The para talks about “...run a vote...”. The succeeding voting threshold must be clear.
b.. 4.b. first paragraph: grammatical edits
c.. 4.b. insertion of an additional bullet point re principles (Manal) which I support
d.. 4.c.iii. re-insertion of “serious”
Rationale: Opportunity should not be given for all kinds of objection since the issue should have been discussed extensively in advance to the designation. The remaining objection should then be characterized as « serious ».
I would in particular be interested in the chair’s/VCs’ opinion regarding the case by case approach since they may want to facilitate the process.
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: Kavouss Arasteh
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 7:14 PM
To: WUKnoben
Cc: joseph alhadeff ; Coordination Group ; Jari Arkko ; Manal Ismail
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Dear Wolf, Joseph ,Jari,Manal,other members of G11
Dear All ICG Members ,
I wish to refer to the draft that I sent to you on 08 September, taking into account views from Joseph and other relating to absentee’s comments emphasizing that chair and vice chairs should identify other possible mechanism apart from the one mentioned in that draft
May I request you to kindly provide your comments in form of revision marks in the text and supporting arguments, if you so wish in the covering message.,
We need to finalize this text as soon as possible
Once gain reference to Quorum and reference to Quantitative Majority or Minority have been deleted and the focus is made on consensus building with the utmost efforts
If not we should continue negotiations with a view to arrive at consensus.
However, if all efforts were /are exhausted, chair and vice chairs together with any other interested party/ties should explore all possible ways and means to identify an appropriate mechanism for a satisfactory resolution of the matter toward consensus .
One example and just one example to consider an sissue approved by consensus is provided .Other examples could equally be valid, according to the case under consideration,
( case by case concept)
Waiting for your kind reply, I remain.
Regards
2014-09-09 23:07 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>:
Dear Wolf
I do my best but in any case I am not pushing for any thing
I expect good will and spirit of collaboartion from every one of us.
The 10 points is the results of the discussion we are facing with.
Evey one pushes for its own.
I am not pushing for any thing but I am not COMFORTABLE with those who wish that their ideas get into the draft word by word and coma by coma
You said quote
*We are all coming up with opinions and arguments which we expect to be taken into consideration"
Unqoute
YES we need to take all view into consideration but we may not able to take all them into account since some of the views expressed conflict with other views
Then we need to negotiate and negotiation has two sides giving and getting.
I did not refer to any ICG commentimng on my views but I read the media quoting some thing from me which I never said that .
Please carefully read my text which referred to MEDIA AND NOT ICG. Perhaps I was not clear on that.
Now you are kindly requested to submit your views on the initial darft with revision marks knowing that we all need to be collaborative and mindful.
Regards
Kavouss .
2014-09-09 22:56 GMT+02:00 WUKnoben <wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de>:
Dear Kavouss,
your perception of our discussion process simply does not meet it’s intention nor does it meet it’s performance. I have not seen any ICG member quoting you in the way you’re describing or accusing you due to any argumentation. We are all coming up with opinions and arguments which we expect to be taken into consideration.
The only real issue I have problems with is not the content of your arguments but the way you try to push them through. It looks like imperative postulations as the 10 bullets in your attached email show. Those postulations do not admit counter-arguments and are not helpful for the discussion.
Myself and others spend a lot of time to enter upon your specific submissions and questions. I simply expect from you the same.
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: Kavouss Arasteh
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 8:52 PM
To: WUKnoben ; joseph alhadeff ; Coordination Group ; Jari Arkko ; Manal Ismail
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Dear All,
Allow me to share some thoughts with you
First of all,
It is surprising and astonishing that I was mistakenly and wrongly and unfairly quoted that to be against consensus
That is an unfounded, wrong and untrue quotation and/or interpretation of what I have said or what I am thinking
I am and have been and I will always be in favour of consensus
That is a tradition and past and present and future practice.
I was also mistakenly and wrongly and unfairly quoted to opt for voting
That is also another unfounded, wrong and untrue quotation and/or interpretation of what I have said or what I am thinking
These are pure allegation and hostile positions
Everybody who knows me is aware that I am always looking to find a compromise for any problem
I therefore categorically and strongly reject such an interpretation wrongly made by media and by those who wish to give a wrong image of me.
Now coming to the second round of consensus building process initiated by me on 06 September after formal ICG meeting in G11 and now circulating within the entire ICG
The issue is not who is right and who is not right.
The issue is we have to negotiate and come to agreement or consensus.
Please therefore kindly not refer that X IS RIGHT or Y IS NOT RIGHT
Some of you insisting that their views be accepted by others .That is not consensus building .That is dominating other’s views .
Negotiation implies that we give something if we wish to get some thing
We cannot expect that we get everything without giving up some thing
The case by case approach that I propose is a workable approach since we still do not know which are the subjects that we may agree or disagree .In one case we could have option x of arriving at consensus and in other case may be option Y to do so.
Let us avoid establishing rules upfront before dealing with an issue.
ICG does not merely deal with technical issues such as those being dealt with by some operational communities as other operational communities have had different mechanism to achieve consensus
Consequently,:
1. be ready to be negotiable, and tolerable
2. agree to the case by case concept
3. agree to limit the inclusion of one possible example as already included and not give another example rather take approach of some of you proposing that chair and vice chairs shall make their utmost efforts to explore way and means in finding appropriate mechanism to achieve consensus or to reach consensus ,on a case by case
4. agree not to refer to quorum
5.agree not to refer to simple minority
6.agree not to refer to rough or soft consensus
7.agree to refer to the possibility of absentees ICG members to make comments when other ICG considering an issue for decision making
8.agree that chair ,in consultation with vice chair opt for some sort of temperature measuring process to find out the sense and9or direction or trend of the ICG mood in discussing issues
9.agree that if the essence of your view points is taken not insisting for the full text that you have proposed.
10. maintain and practice the spirit of collaboration and cooperation and be ready to negotiate and join consensus
TKS
KAVOUSS
2014-09-09 19:56 GMT+02:00 Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>:
Dear Wolf
Dear Joe
Dear all,
Please be fair with me.
I have taken the essence and thrust of Joe, s proposal relating to absentees of members at ICG meeting in two circumstances as he described and I took his proposal relating yo exploring all other possible options than the one I put in the draft
Kavouss
Sent from my iPhone
On 9 Sep 2014, at 17:17, "WUKnoben" <wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de> wrote:
Joe,
you’re right. I’ve seen some of your edits taken by Kavouss in a condensed form but not all of them.
Certainly you should be given the opportunity to comment on this revision again.
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: joseph alhadeff
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 3:16 PM
To: internal-cg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Wolf:
I had added some language on decisions where parties are not present in the comments I had made to the last round as a reflection of our conversation and replacement of the concept of quorum.
Joe
On 9/9/2014 5:20 AM, WUKnoben wrote:
Dear Heather,
I attach
- the version presented at the Istanbul meeting
- the version amended by Kavouss based on the discussion after the meeting
- my amendments/comments to this
I hope it helps understanding our status of discussion.
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: Heather.Dryden at ic.gc.ca
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 9:53 PM
To: wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de ; kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
Cc: Internal-cg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Thank you Wolf-Ulrich. Unfortunately, I missed the discussion group that met after the ICG meetings concluded so I appreciate having a copy of the latest version of the consensus document and the chance to compare and consider its contents before finalizing the document on the Sep. 17 call.
Heather
From: WUKnoben [mailto:wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de]
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 09:41 PM
To: Kavouss Arasteh mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
Cc: Coordination Group mailto:Internal-cg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
All,
let me first say that the discussion in the after-meeting-session (“G11”) was helpful for better understanding as well as moving ahead towards an agreement about the consensus building process. Thanks again to Manal to sum up the essential points made. And thanks to Kavouss as the G11 coordinator.
As it deemed to be necessary and for fairness reasons I’ve made a comparison between the document version which has been on the table when we cut the discussion last Saturday and the last one Kavouss has edited.
Please find the result attached. As we agreed to Patriks proposal to use a significant part of the next call on 17 Sep to (finally) discuss the process it should be diligently prepared.
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: Kavouss Arasteh
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 4:42 PM
To: WUKnoben
Cc: Manal Ismail ; Mary Uduma ; Jari Arkko ; Coordination Group
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Dear All,
I have considered and to a great extent taken into account all of your comments
I therefore created a clean version called V1 after 08 Sept.
Please consider this clean version and
1 make any editorial /language improvement
2 make minimum changes as we may not finish if we start again to redraft.
There is a requirement that first and foremost every body feel comfortable then at least every body equally uncomfortable .
Kavouss
2014-09-08 15:51 GMT+02:00 WUKnoben <wolf-ulrich.knoben at t-online.de>:
And thanks to Manal for this very good summary!
Best regards
Wolf-Ulrich
From: Manal Ismail
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 1:29 PM
To: Mary Uduma ; Jari Arkko ; Kavouss Arasteh
Cc: ICG
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Dear All ..
As one of those who have attended the ‘consensus building’ discussion during the coffee break after the meeting, allow me to clarify that more than 10 ICG members joined the discussion and almost everyone agreed that:
- Utmost efforts should be exerted to reach consensus ..
- Not reaching consensus would weaken the proposal submitted to the NTIA
- A situation where one person can block the whole process should be avoided
- Minority views, no matter how few, should be evaluated qualitatively (based on the merit of the objections) not quantitatively (based on the number of objections)
- Consensus here refers to decisions related to the handling and assembling of submitted proposals not decisions related to approval/disapproval of content of the proposals (which if needed may then be referred back to the relevant communities)
ICG members who were present agreed in principle on the proposal suggested by Mr Arasteh, which basically:
- Stresses the need for reaching consensus
- Delete the controversial minority/quorum part of the text from this part
- Defer decision on how to handle the unlikely situation of not being able to reach a consensus way forward, to be decided upon on a case by case basis
- List examples of alternative means that ICG may choose to follow .. this includes the text on minority as well as the IETF document, circulated by Jari, that describes the rough consensus process, particularly how to deal with different opinions
So apologies to those who were not in the room and did not have the chance to attend ..
Hope this summary, subject to corrections or additions by other present colleagues, provides the necessary background to put us all on the same page ..
Thanks to Mr Arasteh for the suggested text and to all ICG members who were present for the constructive exchange ..
Kind Regards
--Manal
From: internal-cg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Uduma
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 3:21 AM
To: Jari Arkko; Kavouss Arasteh
Cc: ICG
Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
Jari , Arasteh and All,
Kindly make it easier for us to follow the trend of discussions with correct documents. I was about to congratulate the Group of 11 (G11) and all ICG members when Alice's mail came in with the old version of the document. It is a bit confusing.
I think we have progressed positively with the G11's version and formulations, please let us not go back to the old version, reason being that ICG members are errand boys of the communities. The power to object regarding any part of the proposal to NTIA is with each of the communities.
In addition, the version looks balanced, what is left will be to do the minor edits and remove some redundant words and paragraphs like:
1. Purpose:
" Laison " should read 'Liaison' in the second paragraph.
2. Individual/Group Behavior and Norms:
Last paragraph 1st sentence should read :
Public comments received as a result of any forum held by the ICG in relation to its activities should be duly considered and carefully analyzed.
3. Last para in 4b after the bullet points should read
''Following these basic principles, the chair will be responsible for designating each ICG position as one of the following;'
4. 4b under Recommendation
......cannot be reach-.... should read ....cannot be reached.......
The two paragraphs after the last bullet point are no longer necessary, they should be deleted.
Safe trip everyone.
Mary Uduma
On Sunday, September 7, 2014 2:09 AM, Mary Uduma <mnuduma at yahoo.com> wrote:
OOOOsh!!!!
Sleeping and typing, hit the wrong botton.
Please ignore my last unfinished mail.
Mary
On Sunday, September 7, 2014 2:07 AM, Mary Uduma <mnuduma at yahoo.com> wrote:
Jari , Arasteh and All,
Kindly make it easier for us to follow. I was about to congratulate the Group of 11 (G11) and all ICG members when Alice's mail came in with the old version.
I think we have progressed positively with the G11's version, please let us not go back to the old version, reason being that ICG members are errand boys of the communities. The power to object regarding any part of the proposal to NTIA is with each communities.
In addition, the version looks balanced, what is left will be to do the minor edits and remove some redundant words like:
On Saturday, September 6, 2014 11:21 PM, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko at piuha.net> wrote:
And in the after-the-meeting discussion I promised to send a link to the IETF document that describes the rough consensus process. Here:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282
(for the purposes of the ICG decision process, the important bit is how we deal with differing opinions, not the humming. so read it in that light.)
Jari
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