[Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion

joseph alhadeff joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
Thu Sep 11 20:31:13 UTC 2014


Martin:

I agree that operational communities could get special mention as you 
suggest, but I think we also need to top that off with something like 
the consensus that we are seeking is inclusive of all stakeholder groups 
- or something that reinforces the nature of consensus in the same context.

Joe
On 9/11/2014 4:09 PM, Martin Boyle wrote:
>
> Thanks Alissa for making a number of the comments that I was also 
> drafting.
>
> I too would like to preface my remarks with some general points.
>
> First: that a little group got together and agreed a text in the 
> margins of the meeting is a good way to work.  However, the final text 
> has to be approved by the committee.  I was excluded from the 
> discussion in Istanbul (as was Alissa), even though I think I had made 
> it reasonably clear that I have a strong interest in the text.  It is 
> surely better to have concerns ironed out now than to be raised at the 
> next conference call?
>
> Second, I am perhaps alone in finding this text very hard to 
> understand.  I am not going to try to tidy it up and make it easier to 
> understand because Kavouss has made it clear he does not want us to 
> just do drafting changes.  However, in my opinion, a "simple English" 
> draft would be useful and would make our life easier in months to come.
>
> Third: on your comments on Alissa's points, I would note:
>
> 3. The file naming proposal was made without opposition and has been 
> followed by most people.  It provides a way for us all to follow the 
> train of events.
>
> 4. I actually think that views should be provided to the committee, 
> not just to the chairs/vice chairs.  I think that we had an agreement 
> about working openly, so I shared Alissa's concern about private 
> exchanges with the committee's officers.
>
> 5. I also do not understand what "any other mechanisms of consensus" 
> means.  I am none the wiser after the explanation.  I thought it might 
> be a way of saying that there would be another attempt to find 
> consensus, but that doesn't really fit the context.
>
> 6. Running a consensus process again might make sense if there is 
> time.  But in the text here, where we are at the point of running out 
> of time, it does not make sense.  A more pragmatic approach -- will we 
> have an acceptable proposal -- seems to be more important.
>
> 7. And that gets me to a very important issue that you appear to be 
> dismissing without discussion.  I actually believe that the wording 
> that I proposed is needed:   if we overrule an operational community 
> on a point that directly affects them, then you do not have a 
> solution, no matter how wonderful our decision-making process.  
> Proposals that might undermine the policy authority for ccTLDs (for 
> example, by requiring them to adopt gTLD policies) would be totally 
> unacceptable to the ccTLDs (and I would hope also to the government 
> representatives, given the Tunis Agenda).
>
> I have seen Joe's comments that "we cannot ignore the non operational 
> communities and this language makes it seem like they are not relevant 
> to consensus":  I do not think it is. My concern is more about a 
> forced solution through a vote that just does not fit with the 
> organisations that need to implement the outcomes.  My guess is that 
> NTIA would simply send the copy back and tell us to do it again.
>
> 8. I also failed to understand "consensus frameworks," but feel a 
> little more comfortable with the idea of a case-by-case approach to 
> the particular issue and who is affected and -- in the end -- will the 
> final proposal actually be a solution which will generally be accepted 
> when we put it forward at the end of our work.
>
> General comments:  while a lot of progress in understanding has been 
> made by the small group, we all need to understand what we are trying 
> to do and agree to it.  I think both Alissa and I are struggling to 
> develop that understanding.
>
> I attach a marked-up version of Alissa's amendments.  I look forward 
> to a further round of discussions that try to get us to a final version.
>
> Thanks
>
> Martin
>
> *From:*Kavouss Arasteh [mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 11 September 2014 19:37
> *To:* Alissa Cooper
> *Cc:* Martin Boyle; Coordination Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus building discussion
>
> Alissa,
>
> I do not understand what we are doing here.
>
> If 30 people start to totally redraft the ddocument we never end the 
> drafting process.
>
> Those who have not make any comments from 06 September should kindly 
> understand that others made considerable efforts to have some degree 
> of mutual understanding
>
> Allow me to reply to your comments one by one
>
> 1.
>
> Thanks everyone for the work that has been put into this. My comments and
> suggestions are attached. Couple of process points:
>
> No Comments from KA
>
>
>
>  2.
>
>  * My understanding is that we intend as a group to finalize this document
> on our to-be-scheduled conference call on September 17.
>
> Comments from KA ,yes
>
> 3
>
> .* Wolf-Ulrich, it would be great if in the next iteration we could go 
> back
> tComments from KA ,yes
> o using the document naming convention established by Patrik.
> < 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/125evhui9x1thv6/Naming%20strategies%20of%20docum
> ents%20of%20ICG.docx?dl=0 
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/125evhui9x1thv6/Naming%20strategies%20of%20documents%20of%20ICG.docx?dl=0>>
>
> Comments from KA
>
> That procedure is not an approved way to name .that reflects views 
> from one ICG.However, it is not important
>
>
>
>  Couple of substantive points that are also highlighted in the attached:
>
> 4
>
> * In Section 3, I believe members who will be absent from a call should
> provide their views in advance, if they wish, to the full ICG, not just
> the chair/vice-chairs.
>
> Comments from KA
>
> I understand that any views provided to chair and vice chairs  should  
> certainly be provided by chair or Vice chair(s) in the absence of the 
> chair to the entire group but I can agree with the amendments as it 
> brings more clarity to the text
>
>
>  5
>
> * In Section 4(b), I do not understand what "any other mechanisms of
> consensus" means.
>
> Comments from KA
>
> Please note that ,at G11 informal meeting .at the begining people did 
> not want to have any example.However, they suggested to give one 
> possible example .However, some other people wished to include other 
> examples
>
> Finally WE AGREED THAT OTHER EXAMPLES COULD / SHOULD BE EXPLORED ON A 
> CASE BY CASE BASIS
>
> The term " case by case basis" was the heart  of the whole issue that 
> you have unfortunately ignored it and thus the whole discussions of 
> G11 IS OVERRULES  BY YOU .I categorically disagree with that.
>
> In order to implement , on the one hand, the case by case apèproach, 
> and on the other hand, not to overload the document with several 
> examples, the term  "any other mechanisms "  as appropriate and 
> according to the case was included .
>
> 6
>  * In Section 4(c), the second sentence of the Recommendation bullet 
> seemed
> to require either running a consensus process twice, or it just repeated
> what was in the first sentence. I don't think we want to run the same
> processes twice, so I deleted that sentence.
>
>
> Comments from KA
>
> Your  understanding is right
>
> First  it is tried to reach consensus once the issue is sufficient 
> discussed
>
> In not ,every effort or utmost efforts should be made to explore ways 
> and means other than those previously considered at the first round to 
> acheive consensus
>
> 7
>  * In Section 4(c), I have reverted the language in the Recommendation
> example to the suggestion by Martin about directly affected communities
> being overruled. I think this very important edit was lost in the
> discussion last week.
>
> Comments from KA
>
> The  issue is that  people tries to over  emphasize should be pointed 
> to each group as , as a general rule the interests of  all groups 
> represented in ICG should be taken into account .Agin you wish to 
> limit every thing to three operational communities from the outset 
> whereas that approach should not be taken as general rules.
>
> Can you please identify  the link 7association of each and evry grouip 
> participating in ICG to the three  operational communities that you 
> pointing toward.It is difficult to singleout only secific group as 
> such .However, at further stage ,we may be able to focus on a 
> particular operational or oerating community
>
> 8
>
>
>  * In Section 4(c), I don't understand what this means: "Chair and vice
> chairs are advised to consider other possible consensus frameworks in
> addressing the issues, as appropriate to the nature of the case." What are
> other possible consensus frameworks?
>
> Comments from KA
>
> Part of the language is suggested by Wolf
>
> However, to reply you, It means that, should the above rounds of 
> efforts were/ are exhausted ,chair and vice chairs ( you may 
> add,together with intrested parties )are advised or should further 
> explore other ways and means to identify other options 7 alternatives 
> e.g. IETF consensus approach ,if the issue relates to the domain of 
> activities of IETF .However, it was agreed that no such sopecific 
> option / mechanism / alternative is referred to at this point of time 
> rather leave it to the CASE BY CASE APPROACH
>
> I hope I have replied to your various comments
>
> General comment from KA
>
> Let us make every effort not to come back to square one .we did a lot 
> of efforts to establish a great degree of understanding and that 
> understanding needs to be retained
>
> Regards
>
> Kavouss
>
>
>
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