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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you, Malcolm and Mike.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with how Mike approaches these matters, subject to these further comments:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
Needy claimants should be able to bring IRPs and I encourage ICANN to pay special heed to Bylaw 4.3(y) regarding meaningful participation by those who might otherwise be excluded.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
I agree that costs and fees are best handled by the panel and Mike’s guardrails of fairness and equity seem right, as does note of having rules that conform with international arbitration norms.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
I am not convinced that non-commercial claimants should be able to capture all of their costs if they prevail unless ICANN was frivolous in its defense. Parties who are able typically shoulder their own costs and this helps ensure that the costs incurred remain
subject to prudent management. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sorry I will not be able to attend today.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David McAuley<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Policy Director<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Verisign, Inc.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mike Silber <silber.mike@gmail.com> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 6, 2022 6:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Malcolm Hutty <Malcolm@linx.net><br>
<b>Cc:</b> McAuley, David <dmcauley@Verisign.com>; susan.payne@comlaude.com; iot@icann.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [IOT] IRP-IOT action items/next steps on Initiation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#993300">Caution:</span></strong><span style="color:#993300"> </span><span style="color:black">This email originated from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless
you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Malcom<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think you make several excellent points below. At the same time I think you are ascribing certain intent to some of David’s statements that may be unwarranted. Rather than responding in-line [to avoid picking nits] or speaking for David
[as he can respond if he feels it is required] I will top post.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My personal view [recognising that i have been observing in the background and may not be totally current]:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
a party intending to use the IRP (“applicant”) should pay a filing fee. The filing fee should be a first gate to limit trivial or vexatious use of the process, but not so onerous to prevent use of the process. Deserving [needy] applicants should be entitled
to seek a waiver of the fee from the panel;<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
a successful applicant should be entitled to have the filing fee refunded;<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
the question of costs and fees is best dealt with by the panel having regard to fairness and equity with the IRP process giving some limited guidance which could be:<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
commercial applicants should pay their own costs [they will presumably get commercial benefit from a positive outcome] and only be entitled to a refund of those costs if ICANN’s opposition is frivolous or vexatious;<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
non-commercial applicants must apply to the panel for their costs to be met, which may be granted in whole or in part;<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
ICANN pays its own costs and is only able to claim back costs from an (i) unsuccessful;
<b>and</b> (ii) frivolous or vexatious applicant [an applicant who is unsuccessful but not frivolous or vexatious should nt be act risk of a claim for ICANN’s costs];<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
ICANN should pay all the panel / IRP process costs [except for the initial filing fee] and is only entitled to claim a refund of costs if a finding is made that the claim is frivolous or vexatious; and<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
a party’s costs include both internal, legal and administrative costs [courier, translation etc] and should follow the above process.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 5 Dec 2022, at 18:32, Malcolm Hutty via IOT <<a href="mailto:iot@icann.org">iot@icann.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-left:.5in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Presumably, a prevailing party will make a claim for such costs or fees, the losing party will have an opportunity to challenge the claim, and we should trust the panel to make an appropriate ruling. I believe that here too they should
act consistent with international arbitration norms (see also Bylaw 4.3(a)(viii)).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think this notion that a prevailing party will have to claim for costs and fees, while typical for litigation in a court of law, is a big part of what the IRP was intended to avoid.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The idea was that ICANN would have an independent review process that claimants could access to resolve disputes. Nothing in the bylaws authorises ICANN (or its provider) to condition access this process on payment of fees, just as there
is no suggestion that you have to pay to file a Request for Reconsideration or to use the services of the Ombudsman.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Moreover, in David’s formulation, if a Claimant loses, then they’re not the prevailing party and would not be able to claim for costs and fees. This is quite different to the bylaws requirement that ICANN pays the costs of the IRP, with
them only being shifted when the claim was frivolous or vexatious.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David asserts that the bylaws language requiring ICANN to pay the costs of the IRP mechanism only applies to some intangible costs that form a ‘mechanism’ that somehow exclude the actual operation of that mechanism. I find that distinction
artificial, a construct invented to support charging the Claimant, but without foundation in the bylaws.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We should always look to the Bylaws themselves to understand what is required.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David’s assertion that the ‘IRP mechanism’ and the process of hearing a dispute are distinct is actually contradicted directly by the bylaws themselves: Bylaw 4.3(r) states quite explicitly that the fees of the panellists who hear the dispute
are included in the definition of administrative costs. Yet these fees are incontrovertibly the cost of hearing one individual dispute. So any possible suggestion that the costs of hearing the dispute are outside the definition of “administrative costs” is
directly excluded by the clear language of 4.3(r).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This notion of an IRP mechanism as being something other than the process of hearing disputes arises only because we keep using shorthand: we talk of “the IRP” and forget what the IRP actuall is. We need to look back to the bylaws definition
of the IRP to see what the “IRP” really means.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bylaws Article 4.3 (a) begins as follows:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">“ In addition to the reconsideration process described in <u>Section 4.2</u>, </span>ICANN<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white"> shall
have a separate process for independent third-party review of Disputes (defined in <u>Section 4.3(b)(iii)</u>) alleged by a Claimant (as defined in <u>Section 4.3(b)(i)</u>) to be within the scope of the Independent Review Process ("<strong><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">IRP</span></strong>").
The IRP is intended to hear and resolve Disputes for the following purposes ("<strong><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Purposes of the IRP</span></strong>"): […]”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is where IRP is defined: it is a defined term. It refers to “a separate process for independent third-party review of Disputes”. Accordingly when 4.3(r) speaks of ICANN paying for the ‘IRP mechanism’, it is referring to “the process
for independent third-party review of Disputes”. The mechanism *<b>is</b>* the process: there is nothing else.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bylaw 4.3(r) requires ICANN to pay for the process of those Disputes being reviewed. That is what ‘IRP mechanism’ means. Which is entirely consistent with everything else that is said in the Bylaws, including the Purposes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kind Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Malcolm.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#7030A0"> Malcolm Hutty | Executive Director, Legal and Policy</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">T: +44 7789 987 023 |<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://secure-web.cisco.com/1gXx9xbCru0oZFI-I6cKHfFRzZEJ-IRIPzx0q-EjM2gMoAdTyFo_FX-O6lwVvRquI9YLJrCdQnSszD5STY3x1BoGInoPNWMOLYZJzOUfglxuuDMmUe2qejkTskCGtyUNyozbxhdc3itm1saMNr9-wXhcN4fjFKWSGBJpvyIe9wrsADkmLcpPC35AiYV1lMaKBYAgH0yxoA2W7hZ9ppxPDLvcOViSKGwUq6AQNxcSlf9EjZpWPBZbhLcig2JXbKWNZDIcgxRxCsEnrINITeiHSI3qRZdBFC8UgD9reu76GKaU/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linx.net%2F"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.linx.net</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><image006.png><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#7030A0">London Internet Exchange Ltd (LINX)</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">c/o WeWork, 2 Minster Court, Mincing Lane London EC3R 7BB<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Registered in England No. 3137929 at Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>IOT <<a href="mailto:iot-bounces@icann.org"><span style="color:#0563C1">iot-bounces@icann.org</span></a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>McAuley,
David via IOT<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>05 December 2022 13:28<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:susan.payne@comlaude.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">susan.payne@comlaude.com</span></a>;<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:iot@icann.org"><span style="color:#0563C1">iot@icann.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [IOT] IRP-IOT action items/next steps on Initiation<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you, Susan.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My thoughts are below since I need to send apologies for the meeting tomorrow. There is a conflicting meeting for the Community Representatives Group to nominate members of the IRP Standing Panel that I must attend.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">With respect to the issue of filing-fee costs, Bylaw 4.3(r) indicates that ICANN will bear the administrative costs of maintaining the IRP<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><u>mechanism</u>. In my opinion that does not include
a complainant’s filing fee, which instead should be set (probably by ICDR) so as to conform to international arbitration norms (Bylaw 4.3(n)(i) and (ii)). Whatever is set as an initiation fee should not act as an unreasonable bar to filing complaints, I think,
as that would probably not conform to such norms.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On other costs that might routinely apply, I think that we should ensure that a clear and easily findable link to the schedule of applicable fees on the ICDR website be available. It should not take the labors of Hercules to find these
fees.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">As for any other administrative costs and/or fees that might be shifted under Bylaw 4.3(r), I appreciate the thought you put into this as manifest in the google doc. But I tend to think it better not to try to anticipate/imagine such costs.
Here, I think the principle in the bylaw is ok as written.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Presumably, a prevailing party will make a claim for such costs or fees, the losing party will have an opportunity to challenge the claim, and we should trust the panel to make an appropriate ruling. I believe that here too they should
act consistent with international arbitration norms (see also Bylaw 4.3(a)(viii)).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">David McAuley<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Policy Director<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Verisign, Inc.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>IOT <<a href="mailto:iot-bounces@icann.org"><span style="color:#0563C1">iot-bounces@icann.org</span></a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Susan
Payne via IOT<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, December 2, 2022 5:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:iot@icann.org"><span style="color:#0563C1">iot@icann.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[EXTERNAL] [IOT] IRP-IOT action items/next steps on Initiation<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#993300">Caution:</span></strong><span style="color:#993300"> </span><span style="color:black">This email originated
from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On our last call, our discussion on initiation we pent much of our time focussed on the allocation of costs and fees, with reference to the language of Bylaws 4.3(r). As a result of this, we had one action item for Sam, but also a task
for all of us to try to give clarity for potential claimants on the costs they will be responsible for. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We also captured a useful suggestion to use flashes to indicate an updated section (as the UN do), with respect to the planned improvements to the IRP website area which have been anticipated for some time now.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Action items from our previous call</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sam to provide information on costs awards from pre-Transition (2016) IRPs, which may assist with this discussion<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Action for us all</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Irrespective of where we come out on the narrow issue of the IRP filing fee, Kavouss raised a point on our last call which I think resonated with most of the group. Participants and potential participants of an IRP need to know what costs
they will be responsible for. This is directly relevant to initiation because potential Claimants to an IRP should be aware of what they are committing to when they make the decision to proceed. If Bylaws 4.3(r) is ambiguous – which, based on our discussions,
does seem to be the case – then we must give them this clarity. Even if we cannot be exhaustive as to all possible costs, we should be able to identify sufficient examples to serve as a guide for participants on what types of costs will fall to them. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Below is a link to a Google Doc where I have started to capture types of costs that would likely be incurred in an IRP, and tried to identify who bears these costs, currently. In order to make a start on this, I went back to the .WEB decision
since this is a case decided under the new Bylaws and where there were some costs orders made, and I have included a footnote to explain where the costs addressed in that decision seem to give us some guidance. As a result, for a few items I have indicated
both that the Claimant initially paid and that this was later ordered to be reimbursed by ICANN. Indeed, the Claimant’s filing fee, which we have been discussing at length, does appear to have been reimbursed in the .WEB case.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AUMSllaxG_9SicIEVoq4eHwzHn95D8rNPqjwIECNLvI/edit?usp=sharing"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AUMSllaxG_9SicIEVoq4eHwzHn95D8rNPqjwIECNLvI/edit?usp=sharing</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am putting this forward to get the ball rolling. I am sure that there will be other costs/fees that I have not thought about, and I hope that others in the group will add to this, particularly those who are practitioners. I would also
welcome input from IOT members who disagree with my characterisation of any of these items. I am not a practitioner so may inadvertently have mischaracterised something. <o:p></o:p></p>
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