<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>I was going to say that but you draw first. While there were some privacy regimes back then, including some legislation based on the European Data Protection directive from 1995, they didn't have the teeth GDPR and similar regimes like Brazil's LGPD or California privacy law now have. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So besides your original point about the information security soundness of a name collision honeypot, the liabilities in operating such a system are much higher now than the ones then existing. I wonder if any of the supporters of the idea would be able to convince their own employers of operating such a system, even considering some compensation to be involved. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Rubens</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 14 Feb 2022, at 12:46, Jeff Schmidt via NCAP-Discuss <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Apologies, one additional point: GDPR and its global friends did not exist 7 years ago. I am not a lawyer but I strongly suspect the privacy-related requirements (and liabilities) associated with running such a honeypot globally (and subject to literally every global privacy jurisdiction) would be uneconomical at best and untenable at worst. Hard to imagine the proverbial juice being worth the squeeze.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Jeff<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">NCAP-Discuss <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss-bounces@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Jeff Schmidt via NCAP-Discuss <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Reply-To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Jeff Schmidt <<a href="mailto:jschmidt@jasadvisors.com" class="">jschmidt@jasadvisors.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:37 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Justine Chew <<a href="mailto:justine.chew.icann@gmail.com" class="">justine.chew.icann@gmail.com</a>>, Heather Flanagan <<a href="mailto:hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com" class="">hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [NCAP-Discuss] ICANN’s thoughts on controlled interruption<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I’m glad this is (again) coming up as it is a very important and subtle point.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Please see our (the JAS) report, page 22, section 3.1.6 entitled “Alternatives to Controlled Interruption”, specifically 3.1.8 “Honeypot Approaches” which includes what is being referred to here as “Enhanced Controlled Interruption”:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/name-collision-mitigation-final-28oct15-en.pdf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">name-collision-mitigation-final-28oct15-en.pdf (icann.org)</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I would encourage everyone to (re-) read this section of the report (pp. 22-27) as it contains a thoughtful discussion of these issues, and little has changed in the ensuing 7 years. I will reproduce one relevant bullet:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">There are collision scenarios where returning an Internet IP address will cause<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">traffic to be sent over the Internet that was never previously sent. Ever<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">conscious of “cure being worse than the disease” concerns, we certainly do not<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">want to open these hosts to new risks while we try to help them.<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">[. . . ]<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">Controlled interruption should not decrease the security posture of a<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">system, even temporarily. Or, as Verisign cleverly said in their public comment,<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">we don’t want to risk turning “Controlled Interruption” into “Controlled<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class="">Exfiltration!”<o:p class=""></o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><i class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></i></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Verisign noted similar concerns circa 2015 (including their comments to the JAS report) regarding the exfiltration of data that any honeypotting (aka “enhanced controlled interruption”) would cause.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">We also discussed several new liabilities that are created by honeypots – including causing information that would not have otherwise been transmitted over the Internet to be so transmitted (“but for the honeypot”), and the liabilities operators of the honeypot would face by creating lists of vulnerable hosts, capturing unknown and potentially sensitive data, etc. “Causing” honeypots may also subject others to various liabilities.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">As we said in 2015, and I believe is still the case now:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">“. . . JAS believes the risk of operating such a honeypot does not justify the value and recommends against such an implementation.”</i><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Said more bluntly, honeypots are one of those things that sound good in theory but become difficult in practice.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Jeff<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">NCAP-Discuss <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss-bounces@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Justine Chew <<a href="mailto:justine.chew.icann@gmail.com" class="">justine.chew.icann@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Friday, February 11, 2022 at 10:41 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Heather Flanagan <<a href="mailto:hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com" class="">hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ncap-discuss@icann.org" class="">ncap-discuss@icann.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [NCAP-Discuss] ICANN’s thoughts on controlled interruption<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="left" width="100%" style="width: 636px; display: table; float: none;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="background-color: rgb(166, 166, 166); padding: 5.25pt 1.5pt;" class=""></td><td width="100%" style="width: 602px; background-color: rgb(234, 234, 234); padding: 5.25pt 3.75pt 5.25pt 11.25pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Segoe UI", sans-serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">You don't often get email from <a href="mailto:justine.chew.icann@gmail.com" class="">justine.chew.icann@gmail.com</a>.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Learn why this is important</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></td><td width="75" style="width: 56.25pt; background-color: rgb(234, 234, 234); padding: 5.25pt 3.75pt;" class=""></td></tr></tbody></table><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hi Heather,<br class=""><br class="">Thanks for this.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">I'd like to ask please, in your review of reports, advisories etc relevant to Controlled Interruptions and Enhanced Controlled Interruptions, did you come across any explanations (preferably not exclusively in technical language) of the privacy and legal risks associated with the honeypot approach? Might this have been highlighted in SAC 062 (although I didn't quite spot any in a quick scan of this), or perhaps in SAC 066 and/or the JAS report? <br clear="all" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><span style="" class="">Thanks in advance for the assist,<br class=""></span><br class=""><span style="" class="">Justine</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 at 05:52, Heather Flanagan <<a href="mailto:hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">hlf@sphericalcowconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div name="messageBodySection" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Montserrat;" class="">In the chat of yesterday’s call, Ruben wanted to know why ICANN had decided against Enhanced Controlled Interruption in the past. The information I was thinking of is in their Name Collision Framework from July 2014:</span><br class=""><br class=""><span style="font-family: Montserrat;" class="">"</span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">ICANN is interested in maintaining the reliability, security and stability of the DNS and the Internet. </span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">As such, ICANN is interested in providing a good notification measure for those parties that may be </span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">leaking queries intended for private namespaces to the public DNS. However, ICANN is also aware of </span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">the privacy and legal risks associated with the honeypot approach described in SAC 062 and 066 and </span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">the JAS report. ICANN has decided on balancing the good notification features offered by using the </span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""></span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">loopback address option with its superior privacy protection vs. the use of a honeypot. "</span><span style="font-size: 12.5pt;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></span><a href="https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/name-collision-framework-30jul14-en.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-family: Montserrat;" class="">https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/name-collision-framework-30jul14-en.pdf</span></a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span style="font-family: Montserrat;" class="">I think the text will need to be clear in our recommendations why the discussion group thinks this decision by ICANN must be revisted by the Board.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div name="messageSignatureSection" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse: collapse; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px; 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padding: 0in;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width: 306.53125px;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; line-height: 12.6pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(69, 102, 142);" class="">Heather Flanagan</span></b><br class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 68, 68);" class="">Spherical Cow Consulting</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td><td valign="bottom" style="padding: 0in 0in 0.75pt 37.5pt;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="right" width="100%" style="width: 62px; float: right;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in 4.5pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; 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height: 10.5pt;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-size: 1pt;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in 0in 4.5pt;" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding: 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; line-height: 10.5pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(69, 102, 142); border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in;" class=""><img border="0" width="32" height="32" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:~WRD0004.jpg" alt="Image removed by sender." style="width: 0.3333in; 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