[gnso-dow123] Re: [registrars] Whois Operational Point of Contact

Tue Nov 29 18:31:36 UTC 2005

Tim,
I am sure many Registrars will show the expiration date, that is not my
concern, I believe it is truly logical to show. It is those registrars that
don't show it which I have cause for concern with. They are on the record
saying they will not show it. Instead of making this an optional field, I
strongly believe it should be mandatory and also at the Registry level. To
get this started I would like talk about the cause for wanting to remove it.
If we can isolate that objective then perhaps we can craft a more efficient
system. Once we have a problem defined it is easier to fix.

1) Make it harder for Scammers to contact registrants.
2) Don't allow Scammers to place the expiration date in a notice.

We can discuss this more on a seperate list, if anyone else is interested
then please contact me.

Jay

  _____  

From: owner-registrars at gnso.icann.org
[mailto:owner-registrars at gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Tim Ruiz
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 7:42 AM
To: ross at tucows.com
Cc: registrars at gnso.icann.org; gnso-dow123 at gnso.icann.org; Jay Westerdal
Subject: RE: [gnso-dow123] Re: [registrars] Whois Operational Point of
Contact

Jay,

I believe the intent of the proposal is that Registrars are allowed to
publically show the expiry date (but are not required to). So if Registrars'
customers overwhelmingly express the concerns you raise it would seem that
those Registrars would comply with the demand.

Tim Ruiz
VP, Domain Services
The Go Daddy Group, Inc.
Office: 319-294-3940
Fax: 480-247-4516
tim at godaddy.com

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [gnso-dow123] Re: [registrars] Whois Operational Point of
Contact
From: Ross Rader <ross at tucows.com>
Date: Tue, November 29, 2005 9:22 am
To: Jay Westerdal <jwesterdal at nameintel.com>
Cc: registrars at gnso.icann.org, gnso-dow123 at gnso.icann.org

As a general point, I think it would be helpful if we could discuss this 
proposal in practical, candid terms. You correctly point out that this 
proposal isn't a general consensus. It is simply to early for that. This 
isn't simply the views of large registrars though. I have discussed this 
proposal with many different parties - registrars large and small, 
resellers, registrants, registries and general internet users - all with 
many different interests. This document represents the consensus and 
interests of those that we have talked to.

One of the interesting aspects of those conversations was the discovery 
that those that tend to support this proposal are interested in helping 
prevent abuse of personal contact data and the whois system and to bring 
new utility to related applications. Those that don't support it fall in 
one of two camps - they either aren't completely informed about the 
subtler merits of the proposal or they are abusing the system in some way.

One of the aspects of this proposal will see the actual expiry date 
information (which aids data miners and renewal scammers) replaced with 
enhanced status information. i.e. instead of saying "This domain was 
registered on August 12, 2001", it will simply say "ACTIVE", "PENDING 
EXPIRY", "EXPIRED", and so on.

By enhancing the context of the status messaging, registrants, 
resellers, etc. we preserve the publicly accessible trouble-shooting and 
renewal tools but take some key assets away from the data miners, 
renewal scammers and other abusers.

Rather than using your valuable time to create a competing proposal, it 
would be more useful if you would work with us in making this one 
better. While there are some current points of misunderstanding, I am 
sure that there are ways that we can work together to bridge those gaps 
and work together on building a consensus proposal that we can take 
forward together.

Thanks for your input,

-ross

Jay Westerdal wrote:
> Ross,
> I think the proposal looks good, except I would stress that the expiration
> date at the registry level should NOT be phased out or removed as your
> current proposal calls for.
> 
> Your proposal of eliminating that expiration date field should be
discussed
> with domain registrants that have large portfolios. Further outreach is
> needed to achieve a larger consensus driven approach to changing this data
> element as it effects domain owners more then it does domain registrars.
> Last time I publicly objected I had 6 or 7 registrars second my proposal
to
> keep the field. I heard nothing from you until this posting but I have not
> seen any change in position or heard from you to discuss the issue since
> then. So I am not sure your current proposal is consensus driven. I
welcome
> the opportunity to discuss with you the expiration date field later this
> week.
> 
> Since the first mentioned of this idea on the list I have been discussing
> the scenario of removing the expiration date with domain holders for the
> last two months and I have found that domain holders are generally against
> such an action. Meanwhile large registrars are for it and small registrars
> are against it. It would seem registrants and small registrars disagree
with
> large registrars on this critical field. I would ask that input be sought
> from owners of domains before this proposal goes further as well as the
> smaller registrars, some of which are not so small actually.
> 
> Registrants could not stress enough that they use the expiration date
field
> daily. Domain Registrants rely on this date field to be uniform and the
> registry output is the only place it can be found that is uniformly the
> same. If this proposal got ratified as it stands registrars such as
Schlund
> and Melbourne IT are on the record for saying they would stop showing the
> expiration date field altogether in their own registrar output!
> 
> This would leave registrants with no PUBLIC way to determine when to renew
> their domain or when it expired. The impact on Registrants would be huge.
No
> hosting company, tech support, or advisor to the domain owner without
direct
> username and password of a particular domain could check the expiration
> date. Even then it would not be as efficient because a person may have
> domains are several registrars. I realize the problems Registrars face
with
> this field currently is that the Registry logic confuses registrants. If
the
> registries' 45 day grace expiration date confusion was cleared up there is
> no sufficient grounds to remove the expiration date from the registry
> output.
> 
> The additional argument that I have heard is that DROA or other like
minded
> organizations use this field to trick domain owners into transferring
> registrars. With the quote, "It makes their scam look more real to have an
> expiration date listed". This theory is not a well thought out, if a
domain
> owner is so easily tricked into switching and if DROA no longer had access
> to the expiration date field then why would DROA not take the creation
date
> field and add the current year. Now the end user has no way to validate
> expiration date publicly and the expiration guess would be right 85% of
the
> time, would the owner not be more likely to believe the scam now? Clearly
it
> is easier to trick customers if you take away information from them. The
> registrant is more likely to believe this is their current registrar if
you
> have information they believed is to be private. I reject this whole
> argument of hiding expiration date as a means to avoiding scams. Scams
will
> increase not decrease by the removal of this field. You can quote me on
> that. The only solid argument for change is the 45 day issue with registry
> display being off by a year after expiration.
> 
> I plan to submit a proposal to solve the expiration date confusion at the
> registry output and leave the date there, if anyone would like to be
> included in helping define such a proposal please email me and I will
setup
> a separate mailing list to discuss the issue. Perhaps we can informally
meet
> this week to discuss the issue offline as well. I welcome all to
> collaborate, big registrars, small registrars, and domain owners.
> 
> Jay Westerdal
> Name Intelligence, Inc.
> http://www.nameintelligence.com  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-registrars at gnso.icann.org
> [mailto:owner-registrars at gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Ross Rader
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:47 PM
> To: registrars at gnso.icann.org
> Cc: gnso-dow123 at gnso.icann.org
> Subject: [registrars] Whois Operational Point of Contact
> 
> Registrars,
> 
> In Mar del Plata, a small group of like-minded registrars got together 
> to discuss possible solutions to the vexing problem of whois. The basic 
> issue that the amount of data that ICANN requires registrars to display 
> in the whois is facilitating all sorts of undesirable behaviors like 
> renewal scams, data-mining, phishing, identity theft, and so on.
> 
> The result of this discussion is a proposal to rationalize the whois 
> data output and implement a new contact type called the "Operational 
> Point of Contact" or "oPOC". Complete details can be found in the 
> proposal itself which I've posted to my weblog - 
> http://code.byte.org/blog/_archives/2005/11/28/1426464.html
> 
> We are currently seeking feedback and support for this document. If you 
> have any comments, please drop one of the contributors a note. If you 
> would like to formally support this proposal as a signatory, please drop 
> me a note saying so.
> 
> Thanks in advance, please let me know if you have any questions.
> 
> -ross
> 

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