[tz] KyivNotKiev

Fri Nov 27 15:04:41 UTC 2020

Thanks for your answers.

I didn't know I wasn't the first. But I am convinced that I will not be the
last. Therefore, I advise you to prepare automatic answers.

I hope that you will still change the name to Kyiv.

пт, 27 лист. 2020 о 15:42 John Hawkinson <jhawk at alum.mit.edu> пише:

> I want to take this opportunity to respond to multiple messages; replies
> all in-line below.
>
> Andriy Ivanchenko <ivanchenko.andriy at gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 27 Nov 2020
> at 06:39:51 EST in <CADS=
> uUsREjp3QAA0e1dky8oXN9QV6zqJx7xM3FWgBFN_KkEq3A at mail.gmail.com>:
>
> > I understand correctly that you do not plan to change Kiev to Kyiv?
> > Do I still have to wait a while for the final decision?
>
> You do need to wait, but as you have seen, there is considerable
> opposition.
>
> The reason is that issue has come up many many times since at least 2007,
> and the consensus has been that Kyiv is insufficiently common in English to
> warrant making the change. As a result, when you made the request without
> making it very clear that there is a strong argument that there is new
> information, you received a lot of knee-jerk reactions from people on the
> list who have not carefully considered any new information, and also are
> quite used to and comfortable with the decisions made and repeatedly
> endorsed in the past 13 years.
>
> But the ultimate decision will come from the project's maintainers, who
> assess concensus and come to a decision. So it's particularly important
> what Paul Eggert and Tim Parenti think -- they will ultimately make the
> decision, in consultation with the members of this mailing list. I hope
> this lengthy message does not get lost in the frey.
>
> > I don't understand how your system works.
> > Can you write about it in more detail?
>
> You've received a bunch of replies, but it may be helpful for you to take
> a look at the mailing list archives. This Google search shows the approx.
> 120 messages on this topic from the past:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amm.icann.org%2Fpipermail%2Ftz%2F+kyiv
>
>
> Alan Perry <alanp at snowmoose.com> wrote on Thu, 26 Nov 2020
> at 11:44:05 EST in <16E4CCFC-80B0-4A69-B1DD-4727B8C2BFA2 at snowmoose.com>:
>
> > As a Wikipedia editor, I think Mr. Hawkinson should spend some time
> > participating in the Wikipedia decision making process before trying
> > to take in characterizing its inertia against change to others.
>
> I was fairly uncomfortable with the tone of this message and wrote Alan
> Perry about it privately. But I want to remind all of us to speak to the
> issue, not to the person, where we can do so. (It turns out I have spent
> considerable time with Wikipedia's processes.)
>
> > I also question his claim that “major English-language authorities
> > have all switched to Kyiv” without listing them. The English
> > language doesn’t have official authorities, what constitutes a major
> > English-language authority is subjective.
>
> It is absolutely subjective, and I don't mean to suggest there are
> "official" authorities as there are in French. But it remains the case that
> there are unofficial authorities, and they have strong persuasive value for
> many speakers of English.
>
> I linked to the Wikipedia discussion because I thought it was pretty
> fulsome, but perhaps I should have copied some of it here, because people
> do not follow links. The following comes from
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kyiv/Archive_7#Requested_move_28_August_2020
> (I've hard-wrapped this to 70 columns, which I hope is not a mistake; see
> the URL if the formatting is bad for you):
>
> | Original move request 1 July 2020: Kiev → Kyiv – Since October 2019
> | when the 9 months ban/moratorium on requesting to change the name of
> | the article from Kiev to Kyiv was established, the following updates
> | have happened (per Atlantic Council's article from October 21, 2019
> | entitled Kyiv not Kiev: Why spelling matters in Ukraine’s quest for
> | an independent identity, ""A number of global heavyweights have
> | recently adopted the Ukrainian-language derived 'Kyiv' as their
> | official spelling for the country’s capital city, replacing the
> | Russian-rooted 'Kiev'""). Specifically, a couple of changes have
> | happened:
> | 1) all major English publications that used their own stylebook have
> | made updates to their styleguides and now use Kyiv spelling,
> | 2) all major English publications that use standard stylebooks
> | (e.g., Associated Press Stylebook or Canadian Press Stylebook) are
> | now following recent updates in those styleguides and are now using
> | Kyiv,
> | 3) IATA has switched to Kyiv and therefore all international
> | airports have updated their English spelling to Kyiv,
> | 4) BGN has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all major geographical
> | bodies followed suite and are now using Kyiv and, lastly,
> | 5) The Library of Congress has switched to Kyiv and, therefore, all
> | major library organizations followed suite and are now using Kyiv.
> |
> | Below is a selection of a few of those major updates:
> |     bne IntelliNews: January 2006. Official quote from bne
> | IntelliNews: "bne IntelliNews has been using Kyiv since it was
> | founded in 2006" (source:
> |
> https://www.intellinews.com/more-publications-switch-from-kiev-to-kyiv-and-ignore-the-chicken-thing-166136/?source=ukraine
> | ; archived-source: http://archive.is/ZQEHD)
> |
> |     CBC: January 2011 (previously Kyiv was also used by CBC from
> | 1999 to 2004). Official quote from CBC: "CBC News adopted the
> | spelling Kyiv for the city in 2011". (source:
> | https://www.cbc.ca/news2/indepth/words/kiev-or-kyiv.html ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/kpvo0
> |
> |     Canadian Press: January 2018. Official quote from the Canadian
> | Press Stylebook 18th edition: "The Canadian Press stylebook adopts
> | the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling of Ukrainian capital:
> | Kyiv" source:
> |
> https://www.thecanadianpress.com/writing-guides/the-canadian-press-stylebook/
> |
> |     Toronto Star: January 2018. Official quote from the Toronto
> | Star: "We [at Toronto Star] follow The Canadian Press style (which
> | adopts the Ukrainian rather than the Russian spelling). It’s Kyiv."
> | source:
> |
> https://www.thestar.com/trust/2018/01/26/the-stars-style-committee-on-the-importance-of-language.html
> | ; archived-source: http://archive.is/d50oE
> |
> |     The Guardian, 13 February 2019, Official quote from The
> | Guardian: "From February 13 the capital of Ukraine will be written
> | as Kyiv at The Guardian". (source @The Guardian styleguide:
> | https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-k ;
> | archived-source @The Guardian styleguide: http://archive.is/r5OpE
> |
> |     The Calvert Journal 2 April, 2019 Official quote from The
> | Calvert Journal: "We have decided the time is right to change to
> | Kyiv" (source:
> |
> https://www.calvertjournal.com/articles/show/11100/kiev-kyiv-what-to-call-ukrainian-capital
> | , archived-source: http://archive.is/hq4xW
> |
> |     BGN (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in
> | maps) June 17, 2019. Official quote from BGN: "At its 398th meeting
> | on June 11, 2019, the Foreign Names Committee of the United States
> | Board on Geographic Names (BGN) voted unanimously to retire the
> | spelling “Kiev” as a BGN Conventional name for the capital of
> | Ukraine. The spelling “Kyiv” has been the BGN Approved name since
> | 2006, and is now the only name available for standard use within the
> | United States (U.S.) Government, per the authority of the BGN
> | (source on BGN:
> | http://geonames.nga.mil/gns/html/PDFDocs/BGNStatement_Kyiv.pdf,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/pLZlO
> |
> |     Associated Press: 14 August, 2019. Official quote from AP: "We
> | are making a significant change in our style for the Ukrainian
> | capital city Kiev. It will henceforth be written in text, captions
> | and datelines as Kyiv." (source on AP:
> | https://blog.ap.org/announcements/an-update-on-ap-style-on-kyiv ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/ONA0S
> |
> |     The Library of Congress: 12 September, 2019. Official quote from
> | LOC: "In accordance with LC-PCC PS for 16.2.2.5, we have applied the
> | ALA/LC Romanization Table for Ukrainian in the new authorized access
> | point rather than using a form that reflects another romanization
> | scheme. This form is “Kyïv (Ukraine)." (source on lOC
> | (announcement):
> | https://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1909&L=PCCLIST&P=20135,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/XlarP ; source on LOC (entry):
> | http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n81022031.html ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/BzK0T
> |
> |     NPR: September 23, 2019. Official quote from NPR: "Guidance: The
> | Capital Of Ukraine Is Spelled 'Kyiv'" (source on NPR:
> |
> https://www.npr.org/sections/memmos/2019/09/23/763509886/guidance-the-capital-of-ukraine-is-spelled-kyiv
> ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/Lx7Ch
> |
> |     The Wall Street Journal: October 3, 2019. Official quote from
> | WSJ: "After careful consideration, we have joined Associated Press
> | and Webster’s New World College Dictionary (5th) in using the
> | spelling Kyiv for the capital of Ukraine" (source on WSJ:
> | https://blogs.wsj.com/styleandsubstance/2019/10/03/vol-32-no-9-kyiv/,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/yk3Eh
> |
> |     The Globe and Mail: October 10, 2019. Official quote from The
> | Globe and Mail: "The Globe is changing its style on the capital of
> | Ukraine from the Russian-derived "Kiev" to "Kyiv," the
> | transliteration the Ukrainian government uses" (source The Globe and
> | Mail's correspondent Adrian Morrow:
> | https://twitter.com/adrianmorrow/status/1182340357255831552,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/cLGGZ
> |
> |     BBC: October 14, 2019. Official quote from BBC: "From today, BBC
> | News will be changing its spelling of the Ukrainian capital from
> | #Kiev to #Kyiv, bringing us in line with the many international
> | organizations, government agencies, international aviation industry
> | members and media who’ve adopted this spelling." (source on BBC News
> | Press Team @Twitter:
> | https://twitter.com/bbcnewspr/status/1183707458642108416,
> | archive-source: http://archive.is/PGhmq; source on BBC News
> | Ukrainian: https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-49999939 ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/ap1vS ; source on BBC Style
> | Guide:
> | https://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/articles/art20130702112133577,
> | archived-source: http://archive.vn/SD07M
> |
> |     The Washington Post: October 2019. Official quote from TWP: "The
> | Washington Post changes its style guide for the capital of Ukraine,
> | which henceforth will be Kyiv, and not Kiev. This change is
> | effective immediately. These changes are in accordance with the way
> | Ukrainian capital is spelled by Ukrainian institutions, as well by
> | by other media organizations." (source from WP's correspondent Adam
> | Taylor's Twitter:
> | https://twitter.com/mradamtaylor/status/1184470206925676544 ,
> | archived-source from WP's correspondent Adam Taylor's Twitter:
> | http://archive.is/yFzVy; source on Voice of America:
> | https://ukrainian.voanews.com/a/kyiv-not-kiev/5126392.html,
> | source-archived: http://archive.is/nL48F ; source on The Washington
> | Post:
> |
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/starting-in-the-1970s-womens-first-names-were-included-in-post-references/2019/11/23/73dc1eb2-0d59-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html
> | , archived-source: http://archive.is/ZrUos )
> |
> |     The Economist, October, 29 2019. Official quote from The
> | Economist: "Kyiv spelling is now used at The Economist for Ukraine's
> | capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform:
> |
> https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2808601-the-economist-starts-using-kyiv-instead-of-kiev.html
> | , archived-source: http://archive.is/ka7Lv
> |
> |     Financial Times, October, 29 2019. Official quote from Financial
> | Times: "Kyiv spelling is now used at Financial Times for Ukraine's
> | capital" (source news about this on Ukrinform:
> |
> https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-kyiv/2808219-financial-times-vidteper-pisatime-kyiv-zamist-kiev.html
> | , archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/kh5YL
> |
> |     IATA (regulates what spelling is used for geographic names in
> | airports): October, 2019. (source: list of all cities worldwide at
> | iata.org:
> |
> https://www.iata.org/contentassets/5989fc2df9824de3826cccfd279f9409/slot-alleviation-status-ns20-covid19.pdf
> | )
> |
> |     The New York Times: November 18, 2019. Official quote from NYT:
> | "Note: Days after this article was published, The New York Times
> | changed its style of spelling for the capital of Ukraine to Kyiv,
> | reflecting the transliteration from Ukrainian, rather than
> | Russian. The change is reflected in articles published after
> | Nov. 18. " (source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's
> | Twitter:
> | https://twitter.com/AndrewKramerNYT/status/1196496095184084997,
> | archived-source from NYT's correspondent Andrew E. Kramer's Twitter:
> | http://archive.is/wip/3Xqgm; source:
> | https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/us/politics/kiev-pronunciation.html
> | , archived-source: http://archive.is/KjrWw
> |
> |     BuzzFeed: December 31, 2019. Official quote from BuzzFeed: "We
> | updated our style to “Kyiv” to refer to Ukraine’s capital city. The
> | “Kiev” spelling is transliterated from the Russian language, while
> | "Kyiv" is from Ukrainian." (source on BuzzFeed Styleguide @Twitter:
> | https://twitter.com/styleguide/status/1212079459282685954 ,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/wip/0I4rB ; BuzzFeed Styleguide:
> | https://www.buzzfeed.com/emmyf/buzzfeed-style-guide ;
> | archived-source BuzzFeed Styleguide: http://archive.is/G2Y13
> |
> |     Reuters, June 12, 2020. Official quote from Reuters: "From June
> | 15 the capital of Ukraine will be written as Kyiv at
> | @Reuters". (source Reuters' journalist Tommy Lund @Twitter:
> | https://twitter.com/tommylundn/status/1271344841243471872,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/UqgwX; source @Reuters
> | styleguide:
> | http://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=K#Kyiv.2C_not_Kiev ;
> | archived-source @Reuters styleguide: http://archive.is/QZyqw
> |
> |     Facebook, June 26, 2020. Official quote from Facebook: "After
> | reviewing, we switched to using the page “Kyiv” to represent this
> | region". (source: Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine (MFA of
> | Ukraine) Dmytro Kuleba and MFA of Ukraine page CorrectUA,
> | archived-source: http://archive.is/XKXoz --73.75.115.5 (talk) —
> | 73.75.115.5 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this
> | topic. 04:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. ProcrastinatingReader
> | (talk) 18:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk)
> | 17:45, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
>
>
> Further, beyond that list, there is also an even more comprehensive list
> at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kyiv/sources .
>
> > As far as this group, I am not sure what the WSJ or AP does is
> > particularly relevant. However, I think the decisions of
> > English-language naming authorities, like the USGS Board on
> > Geographical Names, and international authorities that designate
> > things in English, like IATA and ICAO, are more relevant and they
> > have gone to using Kyiv as the primary name. What are similar
> > governmental and international authorities doing on this?
>
> I don't know what are examples of "similar" authorities are; can you offer
> some?
>
> I do think, however, that what we are trying to do is measure cultural
> change among English speakers, and that is a hard thing to do. I think what
> major English-language publications choose to do is probably a much better
> indicator of cultural change than what an international trade association
> of airlines chooses to do, so I think the WSJ+AP+NYT examples (all of which
> were present when we last discussed this over a year ago) are far more
> compelling and persuasive.
>
>
> Michael H Deckers <michael.h.deckers at googlemail.com> wrote on Thu, 26 Nov
> 2020
> at 11:15:14 EST in <9e430fe2-4389-7539-bf60-6b2a9a48ba74 at googlemail.com>:
>
> > Current occurrence counts are "Kiev":  135e+6
> >                               "Kyiv":   48e+6
> > so that the frequencies of the two spellings are indeed not far
> > apart.
>
> Although I do not think the numbers tell the full story, and generally
> speaking that they are not helpful for answering the question of whether we
> should switch when a change is made (as opposed to what spelling we should
> choose for a new identifier if a new time zone rule were needed), my
> understanding is that it's important to be pretty careful how you do these
> queries.  For instance, it's generally judged necessary to exclude both
> "Chicken Kiev" (recipe) and "Dynamo Kyiv" (a football club) because both
> are effectively proper nouns that skew the results. But also that what you
> get back from Google depends on where you are in the world, and other
> factors.
>
> And here, on this list, we should be clear about what these are. Are these
> Google search results from some particular location, and are they the
> estimates from the first page of results, or the more accurate counts from
> the final.
>
> It may be more convincing to take a look at the Google Trends plot
> ("interest over time") linked from the Wikipedia sources page:
> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=kiev,kyiv
> It shows several crossovers recently with a projected line of Kyiv
> exceeding Kiev.
>
>
> > I think that this is consistent with waiting for a majority for
> > Kyiv. My spelling checker knows "Kiev" but not "Kyiv".
>
> This is an interesting point, to talk about dictionaries. Many of them are
> descriptive rather than prescriptive and often lag spoken and written
> language by years, sometimes by decades or scores of decades.
> And for computer word lists, there may be no practical method for updating
> them short of a massive operating system upgrade.
>
> If I looked at my system, I shudder to think of the age of
> /usr/share/dict/words (which has neither, ha!), or even the ancient version
> of Microsoft Word.
>
> I'd suggest dictionaries give us a very long time-constant view of these
> issue and that a time-constant measured in decades is probably not the
> right authority for our project to make this decision, but of course
> reasonable people can disagree! But, of course, in practice, spelling of
> proper nouns in computer spell-checkers is not a big deal.
>
>
> Michael H Deckers via tz <tz at iana.org> wrote on Fri, 27 Nov 2020
> at 07:15:08 EST in <b5b423dc-2a65-6bb9-3b23-a0df8dc8f9b2 at googlemail.com>:
> ...
> > It will take some time until "Kyiv" becomes the mainstream English
> > spelling -- one problem with it is that it is not clear how it
> > should be pronounced.
>
> I'm not quite sure why pronunciation matters to us. I'll note, however,
> that there is considerable concern over the proper pronunciation of the
> city, and my understanding is that the obvious and common pronunciation of
> "Kiev" is regarded as incorrect. Consequently, if "Kyiv" introduces a
> little bit of friction on how to pronounce, that may in fact be a good
> thing and helpful in making English speakers question their pronunciation
> when it is worth questioning.
>
> > What I find surprising is that this issue comes up so often. I hope
> > it is not a political issue with which tzdb should not be involved.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what you mean, and I don't think this sort of
> ambiguous comment is helpful.
> Are you likening it to a situation where there are two warring groups who
> favor opposing spellings and the change has come about because one group
> has risen to power over the other, and our accepting the change would be
> like taking sides in a civil war, especially one that could change again
> quickly?
>
> I think this becomes a very difficult question to analyze, because the
> differentiating {a conflict between two sides in a civil war} from {a
> decades-long conflict between two adjacent nations of unequal size and
> resources where one has a history of expansionism} may be more challenging
> than expected.
>
> I think we can say with confidence that absent a major geopolitical shift,
> the current preference for Kyiv is very unlikely to change.
>
>
> Jacob Pratt <jacob at jhpratt.dev> wrote on Fri, 27 Nov 2020
> at 04:43:28 EST in <CAHbUps4dhgAMB918ggzLaRTxEw5=
> 2TS2kiOmscme7nP38dvtoQ at mail.gmail.com>:
>
> > As has been stated by others, the listing should not be taken as
> something
> > to be displayed. The use of Kiev over Kyiv is well established in the tz
> > database. The fact that programmers do not use the CLDR as intended is
> not
> > the fault of the maintainers of the tz database.
>
> The last is...not a fair claim. The tz database came long before CLDR and
> a time when Unix was centered on US English. It is not correct to say that
> the tz maintainers have had no responsibility for the way in which
> internationalization has occurred. We chose to use the identifier in the
> file system, and also to ignore the issue for a long time, and then to
> leverage CLDR for internationalization, rather than integrating such issues
> more tightly. This is not to say our choices were not reasonable or
> justified, but they were nonetheless our choices that contributed to the
> situation ("fault").
>
>
> --
> jhawk at alum.mit.edu
> John Hawkinson
>
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