[vip] Types of variants: do we have consensus?

[Dillon, Chris]

Dear all,

This is not an argument in favour of semantic variants, but I think there would be more of a case for the following Japanese situation.

All of these (and probably several more, but they are not on the Japanese Ministry of Educations official character list [改定常用漢字表]) are ways of writing hakaru 'plan; measure':
計る==測る==量る==諮る==図る==謀る

According to 漢字の用法[=The uses of characters] / 武部良明. - 第２版. - 東京 :  角川書店, [1982] there are the following nuances:
計 when counting and thinking
測 when measuring length etc.
量 when measuring weight; probability
諮 consult
図 plan to do something
謀 plot, scheme

There is overlap in the use of the various characters, although to a lesser extent perhaps with謀 because of its negative implications!

Regards,

Chris.
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-----Original Message-----
From: vip-bounces at icann.org [mailto:vip-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Yee
Sent: 26 July 2011 19:31
To: Giovanni Seppia
Cc: vip at icann.org
Subject: Re: [vip] Types of variants: do we have consensus?

Dear All,

Personally I believed that ICANN question (IDN ccTLD or IDN gTLD) and variant issues are two separate issues.  The *sequence of characters* combined together, regardless meaningful or not to community and/or ICANN, still has variance (mileage varies) issues.

Claiming semantic as variant is hard, very close to impossible.  If one tried to claim that RED==RUBY==CRIMSON are variant of each semantically, one would expect rejection not just from authority but from large communities as well.

And worse, the meaning of string changes over time.  

One question that I think is interesting to all of us (us as Variant Study Team)
What characters are *universally* changeable and/or swappable in each script? and in each language? and under Unicode?

Best,
Joseph


On 2011-07-26, at 11:40 AM, Giovanni Seppia wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> In following up some of the comments circulated so far regarding the association of meaningfulness to a string, I would like to highlight that one of the criteria applied by ICANN when submitting a string application within the ccTLD IDN Fast Track process is "meaningfulness of the string". ICANN does not approve any string request if this element is not adequately addressed by the applicant.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Giovanni
> 
> 
> On 26 Jul 2011, at 09:59, Daniel Kalchev wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 26.07.11 02:30, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>>> "Meaning or restatement of string in English. The applicant will provide a
>>> short description of what the string would mean or represent in English."
>>> Thank you for bringing this requirement to my attention; I somehow
>>> missed it in previous readings of the guidebook.  I'm sure you can
>>> work out what my (personal) opinion of this requirement is.
>> 
>> I always wished our work to be useful at all levels of DNS, but TLDs are definitely supposed to have meaning. So therefore, if we are to focus on variants in the context of TLDs (primarily), then we must consider the meaning "variants".
>> 
>> Even if we do not consider the "meaning" as a string variant, it will surely be considered as such at some other policy level.
>> 
>> If we talk about meaning of the string at any level in DNS, then I could justify your opinion -- however the policies at different levels are quiet different. On many levels "anything goes".
>> 
>>>> I think it is safe to claim that TLDs do have meaning _associated to them_
>>> Semioticians will tell us that _everything_ has meaning associated to
>>> it.  Of course DNS labels have more or less meaning for a given
>>> person, and over time a user community might come to converge on a
>>> conventional meaning.  On the other hand, I've often heard it said
>>> that .org domains are for non-profits.
>> 
>> This I believe was coined during the Bucharest ICANN meeting, where the .ORG TLD was subject to bids. RFC1591 says about .ORG:
>> 
>> ORG - This domain is intended as the miscellaneous TLD for
>> organizations that didn't fit anywhere else. Some non-
>> government organizations may fit here.
>> 
>> On the other hand, would ICANN agree for a gTLD .ОРГ (same phonetics, same abbreviated meaning in Bulgarian, at least) to exist separately from .ORG? If not, why?
>> It is different, because:
>> - has different script (Cyrillic)
>> - does not have visual similarity (oh yes, 'Г' is equivalent with 'R' :)
>> - does have different Abstract Characters and produces different punnycode.
>> 
>> There are many cases like this, that support the non-character base to define variants in DNS.
>> Of course, none of these are technical.
>> But then, character variants are not technical as well. :)
>> 
>> Daniel
>> 
>> 
> 
> Giovanni Seppia
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