[Ws2-jurisdiction] first draft of fact solicitation questions

Sat Nov 26 14:53:04 UTC 2016

Hi,

I am among those who would like to see a question included along the
lines Parminder suggests. It should, however, be made by specific
reference to existing laws that could be used to interfere with ICANN's
ability to provide service to customers in other countries.

While I strongly support keeping the incorporation in CA in the US
because the yet to tested accountability process depends on that, I also
support an effort to look for immunity from laws that affect ICANN
ability to serve clients internationally - be they governments,
companies or individuals.  This immunity should be restricted to ICANN
performance of its mission in relation to international entities and
_not_ relate to contract law, labor law or local ordinances on garbage
pickup.

I do not think that this immunity can be gained in the WS2 timeframe,
but I do believe that WS2 could initiate yet another CCWG effort to work
on that, if the consensus of the group were to do so.

But first we need more of the background information, the so-called
facts. We have to remember that with NTIA oversight, the application of
some laws may have been different than it might be going forward.  We
need to understand whether that is the case or not, and whether there
are laws that could now be applied to ICANN's activities that were not
applied before.

avri

On 26-Nov-16 05:08, parminder wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday 26 November 2016 01:55 PM, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, Parminder, I see this as a request for opinions, not facts.
>> The whole point of this exercise is to gain specific factual cases
>> that show actual issues, not to provide people with an excuse to
>> complain about what the “think are the problems.” I would reject
>> adding such a question to the list 
>>
>
>  Milton, you probably mean, you are against adding such a question :).
> I dont see you have any authority to reject anything any more than I
> have to reject your original formulation.
>
> Was not the community accountability mechanism instituted just on the
> basis of "what people think are the problems"? I saw no efforts to
> gather facts with surveys like
>
> "1.       Are you aware of any instance in which anyone's business,
> privacy, or ability to use or purchase DNS-related services, has been
> affected by absence of a community accountability mechanism ?
>
> If any such known 'facts' exist I am unaware of them and will like to
> know.
>
> In case of the question of ICANN's jurisdiction of incorporation
> analytical facts are rather more evident, as raised in the civil
> society statement.
>
> The process we employ can lead towards certain kind of outcomes rather
> than others. And I see this particular process being aimed at
> foreclosing the jurisdiction of incorporation question. This is fact
> the "application of public laws question" because immunity from such
> application can be obtained even without changing ICANN's place of
> jurisdiction.
>
> Meaning ICANN can stay incorporated as US non profit in California,
> and it exempted from application form various public laws as per the
> US immunity act that I cited. I also said that, as far as I can
> understand, it is possible to keep the private disputes arising from
> ICANN's organisational system, including those about enforcement of
> community powers, to be subject to US/ Californian law, strictly only
> for such dispute resolution as per ICANN bylaws. We need to hear from
> this group why this is not possible or not preferred...
>
> parminder
>
>
>>  
>>
>> *From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *parminder
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 23, 2016 11:54 PM
>> *To:* ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] first draft of fact solicitation
>> questions
>>
>>  
>>
>> I will like to add a general question to the below:
>>
>> What do you think are the problems, if any, with continued
>> jurisdiction of the US state over ICANN, as a US non-profit? Please
>> justify your response with appropriate examples, analysis, etc.
>> Especially, if there are existing and past instances that highlight
>> such problems please indicate them.
>>
>> parminder
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Wednesday 23 November 2016 09:50 PM, Mike Rodenbaugh wrote:
>>
>>     These seem well-stated, except perhaps they should not be looking
>>     only for personal experience, but broaden the request to seek any
>>     experience the responder is aware of?  So I suggest something like:
>>
>>      
>>
>>     1.       Are you aware of any instance in which anyone's
>>     business, privacy, or ability to use or purchase DNS-related
>>     services, has been affected by ICANN's jurisdiction in any way?
>>
>>     If the answer is Yes, please describe specific cases or
>>     incidents, including the date, the parties involved, and links to
>>     any relevant documents.
>>
>>     2.       Are you aware of any instance in which ICANN's
>>     jurisdiction affected any dispute resolution process or
>>     litigation related to domain names?
>>
>>     If the answer is Yes, please describe specific cases or
>>     incidents, including the date, the parties involved, and links to
>>     any relevant documents.
>>
>>      
>>
>>      
>>
>>
>>     Mike Rodenbaugh
>>
>>     RODENBAUGH LAW
>>
>>     tel/fax:  +1.415.738.8087
>>
>>     http://rodenbaugh.com 
>>
>>      
>>
>>     On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Mueller, Milton L
>>     <milton at gatech.edu <mailto:milton at gatech.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>         CW and I have agreed on the following draft:
>>
>>          
>>
>>          
>>
>>         *Request for stakeholder input on jurisdiction issues*
>>
>>          
>>
>>         The Jurisdiction subgroup of the CCWG Accountability is
>>         asking for the community to provide factual input on the
>>         following questions:
>>
>>          
>>
>>         1.       Has your business, your privacy or your ability to
>>         use or purchase DNS-related services, been affected by
>>         ICANN's jurisdiction in any way?
>>
>>         If the answer is Yes, please describe specific cases or
>>         incidents, including the date, the parties involved, and
>>         links to any relevant documents.
>>
>>          
>>
>>         2.       Has ICANN's jurisdiction affected any dispute
>>         resolution process or litigation related to domain names you
>>         have been involved in?
>>
>>         If the answer is Yes, please describe specific cases or
>>         incidents, including the date, the parties involved, and
>>         links to any relevant documents.
>>
>>          
>>
>>          
>>
>>          
>>
>>         Dr. Milton L. Mueller
>>
>>         Professor, School of Public Policy
>>
>>         Georgia Institute of Technology
>>
>>          
>>
>>          
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list
>>         Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>>         https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction
>>
>>      
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
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>>
>>     Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>>
>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
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