[Ws2-jurisdiction] [EXTERNAL] Re: Issue: US's courts' judicial writ over all aspects of ICANN
parminder
parminder at itforchange.net
Wed Aug 30 12:39:29 UTC 2017
On Wednesday 30 August 2017 05:57 PM, Raphaël BEAUREGARD-LACROIX wrote:
> Parminder,
>
> Your mode of argumentation (in all the threads you are involved in at
> the moment) relies on you requesting that anyone who disagrees with
> you disproves your statements.
Raphael, have you and others of similar responses ever thought about how
arguing for changing the status quo can be of a very different nature
than defending it? Or does such simple nuances entirely escape you....
BTW, did you have any proof that NTIA had done anything wrong in its
oversight over IANA....? Why was that arrangement changed, without any
such proofs? Hope you'd answer this.
The problem is always about power: those who take up the power of making
the rules will inevitable win, and you seem to have that power on your
side. And so you can always invent conditions seek proofs, decide what
constitutes proof and what not.....
>
> You have refused over and over to substantiate the various state of
> things you are alleging: various types of encroachment by the US
> government, chilling effects, etc.
>
> It is my understanding that the way we work here is that if you want
> to push for an issue and eventually a recommendation, you have to
> /prove /what you are asserting. Just asserting that your points are
> valid because we cannot disprove them does not lead us anywhere in
> respect of the work that we have to do.
>
> As was discussed in the last call (of which you may read the
> transcript) some were of the opinion that keeping to a step-by-step
> and pragmatic approach in our recommendations was better than bold
> requests, especially if the only thing there is in support of these
> requests is "inferred" threats.
Ah! pragmatism is the status quo-ist's sweet term. How good it sounds.
Yes, I know and inhabit in a world where people and institutions prepare
and arrange for inferred threats. And I know, you live and do so to...
Just we chose some lines of arguments for some things and others for
other things...
parminder
>
>
> 2017-08-30 13:53 GMT+02:00 parminder <parminder at itforchange.net
> <mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday 29 August 2017 12:19 AM, Burr, Becky via
> Ws2-jurisdiction wrote:
>> I don’t think that ICANN’s decision to comply with applicable law
>> – in the US or in any country in which it operates – is the
>> product of a chilling effect.
>
> Yes, it is general acceptance of law, if not the fear of it....
> When the law is illegitimate, as when one country's law is
> applicable wrongly to a global gov process, the same, otherwise
> legitimate fear of law, is called "chilling effect". Both
> legitimate fear of law and chilling effect do the same thing, it
> stops certain behaviour and encourages others.
>
>> Can you give an example where you believe ICANN has refrained
>> from the "legitimate exercise of natural and legal rights by the
>> threat of legal sanction”?
>
> The whole meaning of chilling effect is that is it generalised,
> not obvious and apparent, but strongly there. For instance, can
> you provide me an instance of when a person "did not" undertake
> certain road behaviour because of existence of traffic laws...
> Such negatives are difficult to instantiate, and are supposed to
> be inferred...
>
> parminder
>>
>>
>> *J. Beckwith Burr****
>> **Neustar, Inc.***/**Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer
>> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW DC 20006
>> *Office:***+1.202.533.2932 *Mobile:***+1.202.352.6367
>>
>>
>> *Follow Neustar:*LinkedIn*/* Twitter
>> Reduceyour environmental footprint. Print only if necessary.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The information contained in this email message is intended only
>> for the use of the recipient(s) named above and may contain
>> confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the
>> intended recipient you have received this email message in error
>> and any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
>> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
>> communication in error, please notify us immediately and delete
>> the original message.
>>
>>
>> *From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
>> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *parminder
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 27, 2017 10:31 PM
>> *To:* ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* [Ws2-jurisdiction] Issue: US's courts' judicial writ
>> over all aspects of ICANN
>>
>>
>>
>> Issue
>>
>> As a US based entity, ICANN is subject to full range of US laws.
>> Almost any US court can take up for its judicial consideration
>> whether ICANN works within each of such applicable law or not.
>> This brings up a high likelihood that any time in the future
>> ICANN will have to change under US courts' directions its actions
>> taken in pursuance of its global governance function of
>> developing global DNS related policies and implementing them.
>> This is obviously undemocratic and inappropriate that one
>> country's law and its court decide what a global governance body
>> like ICANN will or will not do.
>>
>> Further, it is not only a matter of a court actually finding
>> legal fault with an ICANN action and forcing to change it.
>> Knowing that ICANN is subject to the full range of US public law,
>> ICANN would always take care to keep its actions with them (as it
>> has no doubt done till now). This is what is called as the
>> "chilling effect
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Chilling-5Feffect&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=8TIH8TteuvkkYq6CySpUDsb-rFI-WPDqQStlF4NiiBo&s=ng0bEDpiuJb18V4iMwJMA0HArPdpsdPFUEfcZW8cfGw&e=>".
>> This phenomenon which is already in existence with ICANN's
>> actions, since its inception, is undemocratic and illegitimate
>> from the point of view of the non US people, since they did not
>> participate in making the US laws, and the laws they may have
>> actually developed may even be in contradiction to US law on a
>> particular subject. This phenomenon therefore leads to denial of
>> democratic rights to non US citizens.
>>
>> Solution:
>>
>> Any given court would not heed to any pleadings about ICANN being
>> special as a global governance organisation, and should be
>> treated as such. Neither is the court legally supposed to do,
>> under the US constitution and laws. The only solution there is a
>> general immunity under the US International Organisations
>> Immunities Act, with proper customisation and exceptions for
>> ICANN to enable to be able to perform its organisational
>> activities from within the US. The chief exception I understand
>> would be the application of California non profit law.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list
>> Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction
>> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list
> Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org <mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction
> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Raphaël Beauregard-Lacroix
> LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rapha%C3%ABl-beauregard-lacroix-88733786/>-
> @rbl0012 <https://twitter.com/rbl0112> - M: +33 7 86 39 18 15
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/ws2-jurisdiction/attachments/20170830/cfda3484/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list