[cc-humanrights] Fwd: Fwd: Re: More comments.

Niels ten Oever niels at article19.org
Tue Jun 2 14:27:38 UTC 2015

Dear Stephanie,

Latest version is the one in which Marilia commented, attached for your

Kathy can be added as a member at this link:



On 02-06-15 16:24, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
> trying again.  Where is the latest draft so I can edit only once?
> Kathy is still not on the group list, so I have to insert her comments
> too.  Please send latest version
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: 	Fwd: Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 14:33:40 -0400
> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
> To: 	Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu <Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu>, Kathy
> Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
> Hi Monika, Kathy here (who was around for the setup of the UDRP and
> fought to keep it less bad than it might have been), had a couple of
> comments on your excellent report.  I can add them when I edit, or she
> could tell you.  I have tried twice now to get her added to the human
> rights list, if you have any idea how to get her on the list, please
> yell.  Kathy has a lot of deep first hand experience with ICANN on this
> stuff, and we need her.
> cheers Steph
> PS she also agrees with publishing now.....not waiting, as Michele
> suggested.
> Sorry to have missed the call but I had kids and thesis advisor issues
> that trumped it....
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: 	Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 10:36:56 -0400
> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
> To: 	cc-humanrights at icann.org, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
> My apologies for missing the call, I had an unexpected event here. 
> I would be happy to help with final edits, as I expect there were more
> revisions suggested on the call.  I am ccing Kathy as I am not sure
> whether you have added her to the list as yet.
> Kind regards, Stephanie P
> On 2015-05-29 8:46, zalnieriute . wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> Would it be fine if I address Marianne's and Gabrielle's comments into
>> the document first, and then we give to Stephanie for grammatical
>> edits she promised in an earlier e-mail? 
>> Let me know as we dont want to have several parellell versions at the
>> same time,
>> Best wishes,
>> Monika
>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Marianne Franklin
>> <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>     Dear all
>>     Just wanted to say hello, rather late into this really interesting
>>     and productive conversation on this CCWP for ICANN. The thread was
>>     quite long and substantial so have had to take time to get up to
>>     speed; nothing like a long train-ride to enable that!.
>>     Being relatively new to ICANN at this level of work, it is quite
>>     encouraging to see how far this work has gone.
>>     I have not much to add in terms of the discussions around the
>>     title of the document, and also the symbolic and legally
>>     substantive issues around Human Rights as enshrined in
>>     international law and CSR. All the points raised are for a
>>     non-expert make sense.
>>     A couple of comments if I may though on the document as it is
>>     readied for circulation to the iCANN community; based on reading
>>     the penultimate draft but hopefully still relevant for the final
>>     tweaks, and future references.
>>     1) The revised preamble/framing of this initiative for ICANN folk:
>>     this works pretty well now as long as there remains room for
>>     eventual inclusion of later human rights treaties and covenants
>>     that tend to drop off the list e.g. those on disability, the
>>     rights of women, rights of children etc. ICANN may want to, at
>>     this very early stage, restrict its thinking to privacy and
>>     freedom of expression, or focus on consumer rights at the expense
>>     of more inclusive human rights norms and keep stipulating this,
>>     particularly in terms of consumer rights and CSR frameworks.
>>     Nonetheless, revising this project in a way that continues to more
>>     inclusive is in the long term the right way to go even if there
>>     may be push-back: international human rights law and norms do not
>>     stop with the ICCPR and ICESCR, and norms change slowly over time
>>     as do legal instruments such as the UN Bill of Rights .... :) .
>>     a) So moving from there to the current introduction; where a clear
>>     distinction is made between protecting and respecting human
>>     rights. This makes sense so do make sure that the remaining
>>     references to 'protecting' human rights are redacted later in the
>>     document (e.g. page 18).
>>     b) That said and recalling point 1 above, the strong emphasis on
>>     how this initiative will only acknowledge"human rights content
>>     [that] is limited to internationally recognized human rights..."
>>     (page 8) strikes me as a bit too restrictive in that international
>>     recognition of the full range of human rights instruments that
>>     have been put in place since the UDHR varies across these treaties
>>     and covenants.
>>     This prominent place given to limitations and restrictions on
>>     which human rights instruments will be taken on board, even if for
>>     strategic purposes, This could in the future put this whole
>>     initiative on to the back foot as these "later" human rights
>>     instruments become relevant to ICANN's work.
>>     I am not a legal expert nor scholar of international human rights
>>     law but could this second limitation on page 8 perhaps be
>>     rephrased to accommodate just these nuances and in way that does
>>     not scare the horses (so to speak) but also does not shut the door
>>     for future developments. Not sure how to rephrase this but
>>     something like "human rights content refers specifically to
>>     recognized international human rights law and norms....."
>>     2) The latter point affects what follows in the document and how
>>     different stakeholders will respond: So If I could just make one
>>     longer comment on the current text in light of comments related to
>>     the IRPC Charter. And, as some of you know, what comes next is
>>     from the point of view of the work of the IRP Coalition and its
>>     Charter of Human Rights and Principles of the Internet. This is
>>     mentioned, and referenced on page 12;
>>     It was suggested that the IRPC Charter does not have the requisite
>>     status because some of its Clauses "fall below international
>>     standards". The legal point - and ensuing debates - raised here
>>     notwithstanding (which Gabrielle provided for the IRPC Charter
>>     review at the 2014 IGF so they are well taken), I would like to
>>     note that seeing the IRPC Charter given its due place in the final
>>     draft confirms that these reservations need not preclude mention
>>     of the IRPC Charter in the context of this new opening for ICANN.
>>     This is because whatever the verdict on its content at present may
>>     be (Version 1.1) in the ICANN work the IRPC Charter is being
>>     rightly attributed its role as a foundational framework for
>>     thinking about human rights (broadly defined) within the more
>>     technically focused IG spaces - within and beyond ICANN. This is
>>     because it is arguably the first document that takes international
>>     law seriously as well as those more ethical though less legally
>>     rigorous positions advocated in civil society spaces i.e. the IRPC
>>     Charter links human rights (in toto) obligations for states to
>>     those articulated for corporations through CSR undertaking. For
>>     this reason alone it deserves this mention.
>>     What do I mean here? The critical points about some parts of the
>>     IRPC Charter referring to emerging rather than existing rights
>>     reach back to the earliest days of the IRPC Charter drafting
>>     process back in 2009; a period of starting out that saw
>>     discussions not unlike the ones we have had on this thread for the
>>     ICANN application of human rights in its work 5-6 years, and
>>     several UN resolutions etc, later. But even with these
>>     imperfections the IRPC Charter, in its own terms a "living
>>     document" (taking its cue from the UDHR) is a formative part of
>>     the ethical and legal landscape in which this ICANN-based
>>     initiative has emerged.
>>     So good to see that the IRPC Charter reference is still there
>>     though could I suggest the following revision of this paragraph on
>>     page 12 for accuracy:
>>     "Within the framework of the Internet Governance Forum, the
>>     Internet Rights & Principles Coalition was created in 2009 with
>>     the mission “to make rights on the Internet and their
>>     related duties, specified from the point of view of individual
>>     users, a central theme of the internet governance debate held in
>>     the IGF context".  In 2010-11 the Internet Rights & Principles
>>     Coalition developed its Charter of Human Rights and Principles for
>>     the Internet, distilling its 21 clauses into 10 Rights and
>>     Principles for the Internet based on international human rights
>>     laws and norms.."
>>     3) A minor editing point: Page 12, note 29 is incomplete so a
>>     minor edit could be "The IRPC Charter is available, in booklet
>>     form, in 8 languages, at http://internetrightsandprinciples.org/site/"
>>     4) And on fiddly things like spelling and typos: Other edits too
>>     are needed to have consistent spelling (US or UK Spelling) and
>>     there are still some typos still need correcting.
>>     5) On Stephanie's points about human rights scaring people; too
>>     true. So all the more reason for this initiative in ICANN to take
>>     courage; they scare not only the very states that are supposed to
>>     uphold them and in so doing protect their citizens, by law and in
>>     principle, but also powerful corporations, and ICANN is one, who
>>     too often fudge fundamental freedoms under CSR waffle or step back
>>     from "respecting" human rights in deed as well as words by
>>     appealing to the limits set on them by various sorts of national
>>     jurisdictions.. :)
>>     Will try and make the upcoming call tomorrow. Thanks Niels for all
>>     this great text-shepherding work.
>>     best wishes
>>     Marianne F
>>     On 27/05/2015 16:32, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>>     Hi all,
>>>     For your information, please find the comments from Gabrielle attached.
>>>     Would be great to see the comments from Stephanie as well.
>>>     If we want to make this a product of the CCWP, it would be great to have
>>>     a bit more people.
>>>     Also happy to discuss this at our call on Friday.
>>>     Best,
>>>     Niels
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>     cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>     -- 
>>     Marianne Franklin, PhD
>>     Professor of Global Media and Politics
>>     Convener: Global Media & Transnational Communications Program
>>     Goldsmiths (University of London)
>>     Department of Media & Communications
>>     New Cross, London SE14 6NW
>>     Tel: +44 20 7919 7072 <tel:%2B44%2020%207919%207072>
>>     <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk> <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>
>>     @GloComm
>>     https://twitter.com/GloComm
>>     http://www.gold.ac.uk/media-communications/staff/franklin/
>>     https://www.gold.ac.uk/pg/ma-global-media-transnational-communications/
>>     Chair of the Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>>     Steering Committee/Former Co-Chair Internet Rights & Principles Coalition (UN IGF)
>>     www.internetrightsandprinciples.org <http://www.internetrightsandprinciples.org>
>>     @netrights
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     cc-humanrights mailing list
>>     cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>> -- 
>> Dr. Monika Zalnieriute
>> Centre for Internet & Human Rights
>> European University Viadrina
>> Mittelweg 50, 12053 Berlin, Germany 
>> e-mail: monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu <mailto:monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu>
>> https://cihr.eu <https://cihr.eu/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>> cc-humanrights at icann.org
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
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