[cc-humanrights] Fwd: Fwd: Re: More comments.

Niels ten Oever niels at article19.org
Tue Jun 2 16:20:16 UTC 2015

In the mean time Monika made a new version, so I you haven't looked at
it yet, use this one.



On 02-06-15 16:27, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Dear Stephanie,
> Latest version is the one in which Marilia commented, attached for your
> convenience.
> Kathy can be added as a member at this link:
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
> Best,
> Niels
> On 02-06-15 16:24, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>> trying again.  Where is the latest draft so I can edit only once?
>> Kathy is still not on the group list, so I have to insert her comments
>> too.  Please send latest version
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: 	Fwd: Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 14:33:40 -0400
>> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: 	Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu <Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu>, Kathy
>> Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>> Hi Monika, Kathy here (who was around for the setup of the UDRP and
>> fought to keep it less bad than it might have been), had a couple of
>> comments on your excellent report.  I can add them when I edit, or she
>> could tell you.  I have tried twice now to get her added to the human
>> rights list, if you have any idea how to get her on the list, please
>> yell.  Kathy has a lot of deep first hand experience with ICANN on this
>> stuff, and we need her.
>> cheers Steph
>> PS she also agrees with publishing now.....not waiting, as Michele
>> suggested.
>> Sorry to have missed the call but I had kids and thesis advisor issues
>> that trumped it....
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: 	Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 10:36:56 -0400
>> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: 	cc-humanrights at icann.org, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>> My apologies for missing the call, I had an unexpected event here. 
>> I would be happy to help with final edits, as I expect there were more
>> revisions suggested on the call.  I am ccing Kathy as I am not sure
>> whether you have added her to the list as yet.
>> Kind regards, Stephanie P
>> On 2015-05-29 8:46, zalnieriute . wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>> Would it be fine if I address Marianne's and Gabrielle's comments into
>>> the document first, and then we give to Stephanie for grammatical
>>> edits she promised in an earlier e-mail? 
>>> Let me know as we dont want to have several parellell versions at the
>>> same time,
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Monika
>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Marianne Franklin
>>> <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>     Dear all
>>>     Just wanted to say hello, rather late into this really interesting
>>>     and productive conversation on this CCWP for ICANN. The thread was
>>>     quite long and substantial so have had to take time to get up to
>>>     speed; nothing like a long train-ride to enable that!.
>>>     Being relatively new to ICANN at this level of work, it is quite
>>>     encouraging to see how far this work has gone.
>>>     I have not much to add in terms of the discussions around the
>>>     title of the document, and also the symbolic and legally
>>>     substantive issues around Human Rights as enshrined in
>>>     international law and CSR. All the points raised are for a
>>>     non-expert make sense.
>>>     A couple of comments if I may though on the document as it is
>>>     readied for circulation to the iCANN community; based on reading
>>>     the penultimate draft but hopefully still relevant for the final
>>>     tweaks, and future references.
>>>     1) The revised preamble/framing of this initiative for ICANN folk:
>>>     this works pretty well now as long as there remains room for
>>>     eventual inclusion of later human rights treaties and covenants
>>>     that tend to drop off the list e.g. those on disability, the
>>>     rights of women, rights of children etc. ICANN may want to, at
>>>     this very early stage, restrict its thinking to privacy and
>>>     freedom of expression, or focus on consumer rights at the expense
>>>     of more inclusive human rights norms and keep stipulating this,
>>>     particularly in terms of consumer rights and CSR frameworks.
>>>     Nonetheless, revising this project in a way that continues to more
>>>     inclusive is in the long term the right way to go even if there
>>>     may be push-back: international human rights law and norms do not
>>>     stop with the ICCPR and ICESCR, and norms change slowly over time
>>>     as do legal instruments such as the UN Bill of Rights .... :) .
>>>     a) So moving from there to the current introduction; where a clear
>>>     distinction is made between protecting and respecting human
>>>     rights. This makes sense so do make sure that the remaining
>>>     references to 'protecting' human rights are redacted later in the
>>>     document (e.g. page 18).
>>>     b) That said and recalling point 1 above, the strong emphasis on
>>>     how this initiative will only acknowledge"human rights content
>>>     [that] is limited to internationally recognized human rights..."
>>>     (page 8) strikes me as a bit too restrictive in that international
>>>     recognition of the full range of human rights instruments that
>>>     have been put in place since the UDHR varies across these treaties
>>>     and covenants.
>>>     This prominent place given to limitations and restrictions on
>>>     which human rights instruments will be taken on board, even if for
>>>     strategic purposes, This could in the future put this whole
>>>     initiative on to the back foot as these "later" human rights
>>>     instruments become relevant to ICANN's work.
>>>     I am not a legal expert nor scholar of international human rights
>>>     law but could this second limitation on page 8 perhaps be
>>>     rephrased to accommodate just these nuances and in way that does
>>>     not scare the horses (so to speak) but also does not shut the door
>>>     for future developments. Not sure how to rephrase this but
>>>     something like "human rights content refers specifically to
>>>     recognized international human rights law and norms....."
>>>     2) The latter point affects what follows in the document and how
>>>     different stakeholders will respond: So If I could just make one
>>>     longer comment on the current text in light of comments related to
>>>     the IRPC Charter. And, as some of you know, what comes next is
>>>     from the point of view of the work of the IRP Coalition and its
>>>     Charter of Human Rights and Principles of the Internet. This is
>>>     mentioned, and referenced on page 12;
>>>     It was suggested that the IRPC Charter does not have the requisite
>>>     status because some of its Clauses "fall below international
>>>     standards". The legal point - and ensuing debates - raised here
>>>     notwithstanding (which Gabrielle provided for the IRPC Charter
>>>     review at the 2014 IGF so they are well taken), I would like to
>>>     note that seeing the IRPC Charter given its due place in the final
>>>     draft confirms that these reservations need not preclude mention
>>>     of the IRPC Charter in the context of this new opening for ICANN.
>>>     This is because whatever the verdict on its content at present may
>>>     be (Version 1.1) in the ICANN work the IRPC Charter is being
>>>     rightly attributed its role as a foundational framework for
>>>     thinking about human rights (broadly defined) within the more
>>>     technically focused IG spaces - within and beyond ICANN. This is
>>>     because it is arguably the first document that takes international
>>>     law seriously as well as those more ethical though less legally
>>>     rigorous positions advocated in civil society spaces i.e. the IRPC
>>>     Charter links human rights (in toto) obligations for states to
>>>     those articulated for corporations through CSR undertaking. For
>>>     this reason alone it deserves this mention.
>>>     What do I mean here? The critical points about some parts of the
>>>     IRPC Charter referring to emerging rather than existing rights
>>>     reach back to the earliest days of the IRPC Charter drafting
>>>     process back in 2009; a period of starting out that saw
>>>     discussions not unlike the ones we have had on this thread for the
>>>     ICANN application of human rights in its work 5-6 years, and
>>>     several UN resolutions etc, later. But even with these
>>>     imperfections the IRPC Charter, in its own terms a "living
>>>     document" (taking its cue from the UDHR) is a formative part of
>>>     the ethical and legal landscape in which this ICANN-based
>>>     initiative has emerged.
>>>     So good to see that the IRPC Charter reference is still there
>>>     though could I suggest the following revision of this paragraph on
>>>     page 12 for accuracy:
>>>     "Within the framework of the Internet Governance Forum, the
>>>     Internet Rights & Principles Coalition was created in 2009 with
>>>     the mission “to make rights on the Internet and their
>>>     related duties, specified from the point of view of individual
>>>     users, a central theme of the internet governance debate held in
>>>     the IGF context".  In 2010-11 the Internet Rights & Principles
>>>     Coalition developed its Charter of Human Rights and Principles for
>>>     the Internet, distilling its 21 clauses into 10 Rights and
>>>     Principles for the Internet based on international human rights
>>>     laws and norms.."
>>>     3) A minor editing point: Page 12, note 29 is incomplete so a
>>>     minor edit could be "The IRPC Charter is available, in booklet
>>>     form, in 8 languages, at http://internetrightsandprinciples.org/site/"
>>>     4) And on fiddly things like spelling and typos: Other edits too
>>>     are needed to have consistent spelling (US or UK Spelling) and
>>>     there are still some typos still need correcting.
>>>     5) On Stephanie's points about human rights scaring people; too
>>>     true. So all the more reason for this initiative in ICANN to take
>>>     courage; they scare not only the very states that are supposed to
>>>     uphold them and in so doing protect their citizens, by law and in
>>>     principle, but also powerful corporations, and ICANN is one, who
>>>     too often fudge fundamental freedoms under CSR waffle or step back
>>>     from "respecting" human rights in deed as well as words by
>>>     appealing to the limits set on them by various sorts of national
>>>     jurisdictions.. :)
>>>     Will try and make the upcoming call tomorrow. Thanks Niels for all
>>>     this great text-shepherding work.
>>>     best wishes
>>>     Marianne F
>>>     On 27/05/2015 16:32, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>>>     Hi all,
>>>>     For your information, please find the comments from Gabrielle attached.
>>>>     Would be great to see the comments from Stephanie as well.
>>>>     If we want to make this a product of the CCWP, it would be great to have
>>>>     a bit more people.
>>>>     Also happy to discuss this at our call on Friday.
>>>>     Best,
>>>>     Niels
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>>     cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>>     -- 
>>>     Marianne Franklin, PhD
>>>     Professor of Global Media and Politics
>>>     Convener: Global Media & Transnational Communications Program
>>>     Goldsmiths (University of London)
>>>     Department of Media & Communications
>>>     New Cross, London SE14 6NW
>>>     Tel: +44 20 7919 7072 <tel:%2B44%2020%207919%207072>
>>>     <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk> <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>
>>>     @GloComm
>>>     https://twitter.com/GloComm
>>>     http://www.gold.ac.uk/media-communications/staff/franklin/
>>>     https://www.gold.ac.uk/pg/ma-global-media-transnational-communications/
>>>     Chair of the Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>>>     Steering Committee/Former Co-Chair Internet Rights & Principles Coalition (UN IGF)
>>>     www.internetrightsandprinciples.org <http://www.internetrightsandprinciples.org>
>>>     @netrights
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>     cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>> -- 
>>> Dr. Monika Zalnieriute
>>> Centre for Internet & Human Rights
>>> European University Viadrina
>>> Mittelweg 50, 12053 Berlin, Germany 
>>> e-mail: monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu <mailto:monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu>
>>> https://cihr.eu <https://cihr.eu/>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>>> cc-humanrights at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
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