[cc-humanrights] Fwd: Fwd: Re: More comments.
Niels ten Oever
niels at article19.org
Tue Jun 2 16:20:16 UTC 2015
In the mean time Monika made a new version, so I you haven't looked at
it yet, use this one.
Best,
Niels
On 02-06-15 16:27, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Dear Stephanie,
>
> Latest version is the one in which Marilia commented, attached for your
> convenience.
>
> Kathy can be added as a member at this link:
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>
> Best,
>
> Niels
>
> On 02-06-15 16:24, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>> trying again. Where is the latest draft so I can edit only once?
>> Kathy is still not on the group list, so I have to insert her comments
>> too. Please send latest version
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: Fwd: Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 14:33:40 -0400
>> From: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu <Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu>, Kathy
>> Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Monika, Kathy here (who was around for the setup of the UDRP and
>> fought to keep it less bad than it might have been), had a couple of
>> comments on your excellent report. I can add them when I edit, or she
>> could tell you. I have tried twice now to get her added to the human
>> rights list, if you have any idea how to get her on the list, please
>> yell. Kathy has a lot of deep first hand experience with ICANN on this
>> stuff, and we need her.
>> cheers Steph
>> PS she also agrees with publishing now.....not waiting, as Michele
>> suggested.
>> Sorry to have missed the call but I had kids and thesis advisor issues
>> that trumped it....
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 10:36:56 -0400
>> From: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: cc-humanrights at icann.org, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies for missing the call, I had an unexpected event here.
>> I would be happy to help with final edits, as I expect there were more
>> revisions suggested on the call. I am ccing Kathy as I am not sure
>> whether you have added her to the list as yet.
>> Kind regards, Stephanie P
>> On 2015-05-29 8:46, zalnieriute . wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> Would it be fine if I address Marianne's and Gabrielle's comments into
>>> the document first, and then we give to Stephanie for grammatical
>>> edits she promised in an earlier e-mail?
>>>
>>> Let me know as we dont want to have several parellell versions at the
>>> same time,
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Monika
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Marianne Franklin
>>> <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear all
>>>
>>> Just wanted to say hello, rather late into this really interesting
>>> and productive conversation on this CCWP for ICANN. The thread was
>>> quite long and substantial so have had to take time to get up to
>>> speed; nothing like a long train-ride to enable that!.
>>>
>>> Being relatively new to ICANN at this level of work, it is quite
>>> encouraging to see how far this work has gone.
>>>
>>> I have not much to add in terms of the discussions around the
>>> title of the document, and also the symbolic and legally
>>> substantive issues around Human Rights as enshrined in
>>> international law and CSR. All the points raised are for a
>>> non-expert make sense.
>>>
>>> A couple of comments if I may though on the document as it is
>>> readied for circulation to the iCANN community; based on reading
>>> the penultimate draft but hopefully still relevant for the final
>>> tweaks, and future references.
>>>
>>> 1) The revised preamble/framing of this initiative for ICANN folk:
>>> this works pretty well now as long as there remains room for
>>> eventual inclusion of later human rights treaties and covenants
>>> that tend to drop off the list e.g. those on disability, the
>>> rights of women, rights of children etc. ICANN may want to, at
>>> this very early stage, restrict its thinking to privacy and
>>> freedom of expression, or focus on consumer rights at the expense
>>> of more inclusive human rights norms and keep stipulating this,
>>> particularly in terms of consumer rights and CSR frameworks.
>>> Nonetheless, revising this project in a way that continues to more
>>> inclusive is in the long term the right way to go even if there
>>> may be push-back: international human rights law and norms do not
>>> stop with the ICCPR and ICESCR, and norms change slowly over time
>>> as do legal instruments such as the UN Bill of Rights .... :) .
>>>
>>> a) So moving from there to the current introduction; where a clear
>>> distinction is made between protecting and respecting human
>>> rights. This makes sense so do make sure that the remaining
>>> references to 'protecting' human rights are redacted later in the
>>> document (e.g. page 18).
>>>
>>> b) That said and recalling point 1 above, the strong emphasis on
>>> how this initiative will only acknowledge"human rights content
>>> [that] is limited to internationally recognized human rights..."
>>> (page 8) strikes me as a bit too restrictive in that international
>>> recognition of the full range of human rights instruments that
>>> have been put in place since the UDHR varies across these treaties
>>> and covenants.
>>>
>>> This prominent place given to limitations and restrictions on
>>> which human rights instruments will be taken on board, even if for
>>> strategic purposes, This could in the future put this whole
>>> initiative on to the back foot as these "later" human rights
>>> instruments become relevant to ICANN's work.
>>>
>>> I am not a legal expert nor scholar of international human rights
>>> law but could this second limitation on page 8 perhaps be
>>> rephrased to accommodate just these nuances and in way that does
>>> not scare the horses (so to speak) but also does not shut the door
>>> for future developments. Not sure how to rephrase this but
>>> something like "human rights content refers specifically to
>>> recognized international human rights law and norms....."
>>>
>>> 2) The latter point affects what follows in the document and how
>>> different stakeholders will respond: So If I could just make one
>>> longer comment on the current text in light of comments related to
>>> the IRPC Charter. And, as some of you know, what comes next is
>>> from the point of view of the work of the IRP Coalition and its
>>> Charter of Human Rights and Principles of the Internet. This is
>>> mentioned, and referenced on page 12;
>>>
>>> It was suggested that the IRPC Charter does not have the requisite
>>> status because some of its Clauses "fall below international
>>> standards". The legal point - and ensuing debates - raised here
>>> notwithstanding (which Gabrielle provided for the IRPC Charter
>>> review at the 2014 IGF so they are well taken), I would like to
>>> note that seeing the IRPC Charter given its due place in the final
>>> draft confirms that these reservations need not preclude mention
>>> of the IRPC Charter in the context of this new opening for ICANN.
>>>
>>> This is because whatever the verdict on its content at present may
>>> be (Version 1.1) in the ICANN work the IRPC Charter is being
>>> rightly attributed its role as a foundational framework for
>>> thinking about human rights (broadly defined) within the more
>>> technically focused IG spaces - within and beyond ICANN. This is
>>> because it is arguably the first document that takes international
>>> law seriously as well as those more ethical though less legally
>>> rigorous positions advocated in civil society spaces i.e. the IRPC
>>> Charter links human rights (in toto) obligations for states to
>>> those articulated for corporations through CSR undertaking. For
>>> this reason alone it deserves this mention.
>>>
>>> What do I mean here? The critical points about some parts of the
>>> IRPC Charter referring to emerging rather than existing rights
>>> reach back to the earliest days of the IRPC Charter drafting
>>> process back in 2009; a period of starting out that saw
>>> discussions not unlike the ones we have had on this thread for the
>>> ICANN application of human rights in its work 5-6 years, and
>>> several UN resolutions etc, later. But even with these
>>> imperfections the IRPC Charter, in its own terms a "living
>>> document" (taking its cue from the UDHR) is a formative part of
>>> the ethical and legal landscape in which this ICANN-based
>>> initiative has emerged.
>>>
>>> So good to see that the IRPC Charter reference is still there
>>> though could I suggest the following revision of this paragraph on
>>> page 12 for accuracy:
>>>
>>> "Within the framework of the Internet Governance Forum, the
>>> Internet Rights & Principles Coalition was created in 2009 with
>>> the mission “to make rights on the Internet and their
>>> related duties, specified from the point of view of individual
>>> users, a central theme of the internet governance debate held in
>>> the IGF context". In 2010-11 the Internet Rights & Principles
>>> Coalition developed its Charter of Human Rights and Principles for
>>> the Internet, distilling its 21 clauses into 10 Rights and
>>> Principles for the Internet based on international human rights
>>> laws and norms.."
>>>
>>> 3) A minor editing point: Page 12, note 29 is incomplete so a
>>> minor edit could be "The IRPC Charter is available, in booklet
>>> form, in 8 languages, at http://internetrightsandprinciples.org/site/"
>>>
>>> 4) And on fiddly things like spelling and typos: Other edits too
>>> are needed to have consistent spelling (US or UK Spelling) and
>>> there are still some typos still need correcting.
>>>
>>> 5) On Stephanie's points about human rights scaring people; too
>>> true. So all the more reason for this initiative in ICANN to take
>>> courage; they scare not only the very states that are supposed to
>>> uphold them and in so doing protect their citizens, by law and in
>>> principle, but also powerful corporations, and ICANN is one, who
>>> too often fudge fundamental freedoms under CSR waffle or step back
>>> from "respecting" human rights in deed as well as words by
>>> appealing to the limits set on them by various sorts of national
>>> jurisdictions.. :)
>>>
>>> Will try and make the upcoming call tomorrow. Thanks Niels for all
>>> this great text-shepherding work.
>>>
>>> best wishes
>>> Marianne F
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/05/2015 16:32, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> For your information, please find the comments from Gabrielle attached.
>>>> Would be great to see the comments from Stephanie as well.
>>>>
>>>> If we want to make this a product of the CCWP, it would be great to have
>>>> a bit more people.
>>>>
>>>> Also happy to discuss this at our call on Friday.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Niels
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>> cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marianne Franklin, PhD
>>> Professor of Global Media and Politics
>>> Convener: Global Media & Transnational Communications Program
>>> Goldsmiths (University of London)
>>> Department of Media & Communications
>>> New Cross, London SE14 6NW
>>> Tel: +44 20 7919 7072 <tel:%2B44%2020%207919%207072>
>>> <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk> <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>
>>> @GloComm
>>> https://twitter.com/GloComm
>>> http://www.gold.ac.uk/media-communications/staff/franklin/
>>> https://www.gold.ac.uk/pg/ma-global-media-transnational-communications/
>>> Chair of the Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>>> Steering Committee/Former Co-Chair Internet Rights & Principles Coalition (UN IGF)
>>> www.internetrightsandprinciples.org <http://www.internetrightsandprinciples.org>
>>> @netrights
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>>> cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Monika Zalnieriute
>>> Centre for Internet & Human Rights
>>> European University Viadrina
>>> Mittelweg 50, 12053 Berlin, Germany
>>> e-mail: monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu <mailto:monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu>
>>> https://cihr.eu <https://cihr.eu/>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>>> cc-humanrights at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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