[cc-humanrights] Fwd: Fwd: Re: More comments.

Stephanie Perrin stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Tue Jun 2 16:49:11 UTC 2015

Thanks a lot, getting at it now!

On 2015-06-02 10:27, Niels ten Oever wrote:
> Dear Stephanie,
> Latest version is the one in which Marilia commented, attached for your
> convenience.
> Kathy can be added as a member at this link:
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
> Best,
> Niels
> On 02-06-15 16:24, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>> trying again.  Where is the latest draft so I can edit only once?
>> Kathy is still not on the group list, so I have to insert her comments
>> too.  Please send latest version
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: 	Fwd: Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 14:33:40 -0400
>> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: 	Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu <Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu>, Kathy
>> Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>> Hi Monika, Kathy here (who was around for the setup of the UDRP and
>> fought to keep it less bad than it might have been), had a couple of
>> comments on your excellent report.  I can add them when I edit, or she
>> could tell you.  I have tried twice now to get her added to the human
>> rights list, if you have any idea how to get her on the list, please
>> yell.  Kathy has a lot of deep first hand experience with ICANN on this
>> stuff, and we need her.
>> cheers Steph
>> PS she also agrees with publishing now.....not waiting, as Michele
>> suggested.
>> Sorry to have missed the call but I had kids and thesis advisor issues
>> that trumped it....
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: 	Re: [cc-humanrights] More comments.
>> Date: 	Fri, 29 May 2015 10:36:56 -0400
>> From: 	Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> To: 	cc-humanrights at icann.org, Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com>
>> My apologies for missing the call, I had an unexpected event here.
>> I would be happy to help with final edits, as I expect there were more
>> revisions suggested on the call.  I am ccing Kathy as I am not sure
>> whether you have added her to the list as yet.
>> Kind regards, Stephanie P
>> On 2015-05-29 8:46, zalnieriute . wrote:
>>> Dear All,
>>> Would it be fine if I address Marianne's and Gabrielle's comments into
>>> the document first, and then we give to Stephanie for grammatical
>>> edits she promised in an earlier e-mail?
>>> Let me know as we dont want to have several parellell versions at the
>>> same time,
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Monika
>>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Marianne Franklin
>>> <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>      Dear all
>>>      Just wanted to say hello, rather late into this really interesting
>>>      and productive conversation on this CCWP for ICANN. The thread was
>>>      quite long and substantial so have had to take time to get up to
>>>      speed; nothing like a long train-ride to enable that!.
>>>      Being relatively new to ICANN at this level of work, it is quite
>>>      encouraging to see how far this work has gone.
>>>      I have not much to add in terms of the discussions around the
>>>      title of the document, and also the symbolic and legally
>>>      substantive issues around Human Rights as enshrined in
>>>      international law and CSR. All the points raised are for a
>>>      non-expert make sense.
>>>      A couple of comments if I may though on the document as it is
>>>      readied for circulation to the iCANN community; based on reading
>>>      the penultimate draft but hopefully still relevant for the final
>>>      tweaks, and future references.
>>>      1) The revised preamble/framing of this initiative for ICANN folk:
>>>      this works pretty well now as long as there remains room for
>>>      eventual inclusion of later human rights treaties and covenants
>>>      that tend to drop off the list e.g. those on disability, the
>>>      rights of women, rights of children etc. ICANN may want to, at
>>>      this very early stage, restrict its thinking to privacy and
>>>      freedom of expression, or focus on consumer rights at the expense
>>>      of more inclusive human rights norms and keep stipulating this,
>>>      particularly in terms of consumer rights and CSR frameworks.
>>>      Nonetheless, revising this project in a way that continues to more
>>>      inclusive is in the long term the right way to go even if there
>>>      may be push-back: international human rights law and norms do not
>>>      stop with the ICCPR and ICESCR, and norms change slowly over time
>>>      as do legal instruments such as the UN Bill of Rights .... :) .
>>>      a) So moving from there to the current introduction; where a clear
>>>      distinction is made between protecting and respecting human
>>>      rights. This makes sense so do make sure that the remaining
>>>      references to 'protecting' human rights are redacted later in the
>>>      document (e.g. page 18).
>>>      b) That said and recalling point 1 above, the strong emphasis on
>>>      how this initiative will only acknowledge"human rights content
>>>      [that] is limited to internationally recognized human rights..."
>>>      (page 8) strikes me as a bit too restrictive in that international
>>>      recognition of the full range of human rights instruments that
>>>      have been put in place since the UDHR varies across these treaties
>>>      and covenants.
>>>      This prominent place given to limitations and restrictions on
>>>      which human rights instruments will be taken on board, even if for
>>>      strategic purposes, This could in the future put this whole
>>>      initiative on to the back foot as these "later" human rights
>>>      instruments become relevant to ICANN's work.
>>>      I am not a legal expert nor scholar of international human rights
>>>      law but could this second limitation on page 8 perhaps be
>>>      rephrased to accommodate just these nuances and in way that does
>>>      not scare the horses (so to speak) but also does not shut the door
>>>      for future developments. Not sure how to rephrase this but
>>>      something like "human rights content refers specifically to
>>>      recognized international human rights law and norms....."
>>>      2) The latter point affects what follows in the document and how
>>>      different stakeholders will respond: So If I could just make one
>>>      longer comment on the current text in light of comments related to
>>>      the IRPC Charter. And, as some of you know, what comes next is
>>>      from the point of view of the work of the IRP Coalition and its
>>>      Charter of Human Rights and Principles of the Internet. This is
>>>      mentioned, and referenced on page 12;
>>>      It was suggested that the IRPC Charter does not have the requisite
>>>      status because some of its Clauses "fall below international
>>>      standards". The legal point - and ensuing debates - raised here
>>>      notwithstanding (which Gabrielle provided for the IRPC Charter
>>>      review at the 2014 IGF so they are well taken), I would like to
>>>      note that seeing the IRPC Charter given its due place in the final
>>>      draft confirms that these reservations need not preclude mention
>>>      of the IRPC Charter in the context of this new opening for ICANN.
>>>      This is because whatever the verdict on its content at present may
>>>      be (Version 1.1) in the ICANN work the IRPC Charter is being
>>>      rightly attributed its role as a foundational framework for
>>>      thinking about human rights (broadly defined) within the more
>>>      technically focused IG spaces - within and beyond ICANN. This is
>>>      because it is arguably the first document that takes international
>>>      law seriously as well as those more ethical though less legally
>>>      rigorous positions advocated in civil society spaces i.e. the IRPC
>>>      Charter links human rights (in toto) obligations for states to
>>>      those articulated for corporations through CSR undertaking. For
>>>      this reason alone it deserves this mention.
>>>      What do I mean here? The critical points about some parts of the
>>>      IRPC Charter referring to emerging rather than existing rights
>>>      reach back to the earliest days of the IRPC Charter drafting
>>>      process back in 2009; a period of starting out that saw
>>>      discussions not unlike the ones we have had on this thread for the
>>>      ICANN application of human rights in its work 5-6 years, and
>>>      several UN resolutions etc, later. But even with these
>>>      imperfections the IRPC Charter, in its own terms a "living
>>>      document" (taking its cue from the UDHR) is a formative part of
>>>      the ethical and legal landscape in which this ICANN-based
>>>      initiative has emerged.
>>>      So good to see that the IRPC Charter reference is still there
>>>      though could I suggest the following revision of this paragraph on
>>>      page 12 for accuracy:
>>>      "Within the framework of the Internet Governance Forum, the
>>>      Internet Rights & Principles Coalition was created in 2009 with
>>>      the mission “to make rights on the Internet and their
>>>      related duties, specified from the point of view of individual
>>>      users, a central theme of the internet governance debate held in
>>>      the IGF context".  In 2010-11 the Internet Rights & Principles
>>>      Coalition developed its Charter of Human Rights and Principles for
>>>      the Internet, distilling its 21 clauses into 10 Rights and
>>>      Principles for the Internet based on international human rights
>>>      laws and norms.."
>>>      3) A minor editing point: Page 12, note 29 is incomplete so a
>>>      minor edit could be "The IRPC Charter is available, in booklet
>>>      form, in 8 languages, at http://internetrightsandprinciples.org/site/"
>>>      4) And on fiddly things like spelling and typos: Other edits too
>>>      are needed to have consistent spelling (US or UK Spelling) and
>>>      there are still some typos still need correcting.
>>>      5) On Stephanie's points about human rights scaring people; too
>>>      true. So all the more reason for this initiative in ICANN to take
>>>      courage; they scare not only the very states that are supposed to
>>>      uphold them and in so doing protect their citizens, by law and in
>>>      principle, but also powerful corporations, and ICANN is one, who
>>>      too often fudge fundamental freedoms under CSR waffle or step back
>>>      from "respecting" human rights in deed as well as words by
>>>      appealing to the limits set on them by various sorts of national
>>>      jurisdictions.. :)
>>>      Will try and make the upcoming call tomorrow. Thanks Niels for all
>>>      this great text-shepherding work.
>>>      best wishes
>>>      Marianne F
>>>      On 27/05/2015 16:32, Niels ten Oever wrote:
>>>>      Hi all,
>>>>      For your information, please find the comments from Gabrielle attached.
>>>>      Would be great to see the comments from Stephanie as well.
>>>>      If we want to make this a product of the CCWP, it would be great to have
>>>>      a bit more people.
>>>>      Also happy to discuss this at our call on Friday.
>>>>      Best,
>>>>      Niels
>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>      cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>>      cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>>      https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>>      --
>>>      Marianne Franklin, PhD
>>>      Professor of Global Media and Politics
>>>      Convener: Global Media & Transnational Communications Program
>>>      Goldsmiths (University of London)
>>>      Department of Media & Communications
>>>      New Cross, London SE14 6NW
>>>      Tel: +44 20 7919 7072 <tel:%2B44%2020%207919%207072>
>>>      <m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk> <mailto:m.i.franklin at gold.ac.uk>
>>>      @GloComm
>>>      https://twitter.com/GloComm
>>>      http://www.gold.ac.uk/media-communications/staff/franklin/
>>>      https://www.gold.ac.uk/pg/ma-global-media-transnational-communications/
>>>      Chair of the Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>>>      Steering Committee/Former Co-Chair Internet Rights & Principles Coalition (UN IGF)
>>>      www.internetrightsandprinciples.org <http://www.internetrightsandprinciples.org>
>>>      @netrights
>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>      cc-humanrights mailing list
>>>      cc-humanrights at icann.org <mailto:cc-humanrights at icann.org>
>>>      https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights
>>> -- 
>>> Dr. Monika Zalnieriute
>>> Centre for Internet & Human Rights
>>> European University Viadrina
>>> Mittelweg 50, 12053 Berlin, Germany
>>> e-mail: monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu <mailto:monika.zalnieriute at eui.eu>
>>> https://cihr.eu <https://cihr.eu/>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cc-humanrights mailing list
>>> cc-humanrights at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-humanrights

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