[Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism

Maureen Hilyard maureen.hilyard at gmail.com
Mon Aug 19 20:28:09 UTC 2019


I agree, Becky

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 6:05 AM Becky Burr <BBurr at hwglaw.com> wrote:

> It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the
> CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms
> (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an
> adverse grant decision.  Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind
> of situation.
>
> From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces at icann.org> on
> behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith at jhellerstein.com>
> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM
> To: Erika Mann <erika at erikamann.com>
> Cc: John R Levine <johnl at taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <
> ccwg-auctionproceeds at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for
> individual appeals mechanism
>
> Hi Erika
> I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea
> of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity
> to the grant process
>
> Best
> Judith
> Sent from my iPhone
> Judith at jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith at jhellerstein.com>
> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
>
> On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika at erikamann.com<mailto:
> erika at erikamann.com>> wrote:
> I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before
> but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully
> we can put this item to rest now.
>
> Erika
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade at hotmail.com
> <mailto:marilynscade at hotmail.com>> wrote:
> Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
>
> Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
>
> Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered;
> recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded
> complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public
> comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces at icann.org<mailto:
> ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <
> vanda at scartezini.org<mailto:vanda at scartezini.org>>
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM
> To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel at gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel at gmail.com>>
> Cc: John R Levine <johnl at taugh.com<mailto:johnl at taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction
> Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds at icann.org<mailto:
> ccwg-auctionproceeds at icann.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for
> individual appeals mechanism
>
> Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since
> that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and
> their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society.
> Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of
> the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in
> the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
>
> Vanda Scartezini
> Sent from my iPad
> Sorry for any typos and misspellings
>
> On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel at gmail.com<mailto:
> rudi.daniel at gmail.com>> wrote:
> "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be
> requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul
> review of the program."
> End quote.
>
> This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the
> grant process being tabled.
> The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to
> forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite
> detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants.
> My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and
> fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre
> established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to
> keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking
> that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the
> fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going
> to be "very light weight" .
>
> I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each
> funding call should be drafted with this in mind...
> RD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>> wrote:
> I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal
> process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
>
> - be VERY light weight;
> - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission
> - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being
> final;
> - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected.
> Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been
> suggested).
>
> Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they
> may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high
> benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds
> for that period on projects that were better!
>
> As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process,
> and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much
> everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the
> program with little positive outcome.
>
> That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should
> be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the
> annul review of the program.
>
> Alan
>
>
> At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
> >>Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run
> >>such grant making organizations @Sylvia
> >>Cadena<mailto:sylvia at apnic.net<mailto:sylvia at apnic.net>> has weighed in
> on this with some
> >>factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
>
> I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up
> an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so
> no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
>
> R's,
> John
>
> At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
> >>Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the
> individual
> >>appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your
> review.
> >>Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in
> advance of
> >>the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
> >
> >It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important
> >questions open, e.g.
> >
> >* Who pays for the appeal?  Is it like UDRP where the parties split
> >the cost, or
> >is it all ICANN?
> >
> >* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be
> applicants
> >who are unhappy that they didn't get funded.  Is there a way to dispose of
> >obviously bogus appeals efficiently?  Obviously bogus means things like
> not
> >identifying any process failure other than saying no.
> >
> >Regards,
> >John Levine, johnl at iecc.com<mailto:johnl at iecc.com>, Primary Perpetrator
> of "The Internet
> >for Dummies",
> >Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
> <
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