[Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt2] recording, Attendance, AC recording and AC Chat for New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team – Track 2 – Legal/Regulatory Issues 27 April 2017
Terri Agnew
terri.agnew at icann.org
Thu Apr 27 22:31:58 UTC 2017
Dear All,
Please find the attendance and recording of the call attached to this email.
The AC recording and AC Chat are listed below for the New gTLD Subsequent
Procedures Sub Team - Track 2 - Legal/Regulatory Issues held on Thursday, 27
April 2017 at 21:00 UTC.
Adobe Connect recording (audio and visual):
<https://participate.icann.org/p2hoivyjjkj/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=270a392f7eacd741
b08abf3f2654f84519ad6e8cf34f5cf5e6c5e8497ddb0bc4>
https://participate.icann.org/p2hoivyjjkj/
The recordings of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:
<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar>
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt2>
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt2
Agenda Wiki page: <https://community.icann.org/x/CrHRAw>
https://community.icann.org/x/CrHRAw
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Terri
-------------------------------
Adobe Connect chat transcript for 27 April 2017
Julie Bisland:Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team -
Track 2 - Legal/Regulatory Issues on Thursday, 27 April 2017 at 21:00 UTC.
Julie Bisland:Agenda Wiki page:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_C
rHRAw
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_
CrHRAw&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpC
IgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaV
s&s=9oGePU4gxyyDGZXNWvnFiOMcgUqIwWWZpAQr76uZLtg&e>
&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaVs&s=9o
GePU4gxyyDGZXNWvnFiOMcgUqIwWWZpAQr76uZLtg&e=
Terri Agnew:We would like to introduce Julie Bisland as GNSO SO/AC Support
coordinator. She has started training with us this week.
Michele Neylon:evening
Alexander Schubert:nicht
Alexander Schubert:*night
Jeff Neuman:Welcome everyone!
Jeff Neuman:We have some phone numbers listed without names....is it
possible to match up numbers with names
Michele Neylon:the 353 one is me
Milton Mueller:is that an IPv6 address? ;-)
Cecilia Smith:I'm 858
Michele Neylon:Milton :)
Steve Chan:The recordings, transcripts, and slides from the two geographic
names sessions are available here:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group
-2Dactivities_calendar-23apr
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_grou
p-2Dactivities_calendar-23apr&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7
xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN
3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaVs&s=Ycfa-Up_0CEFNswZUk3eGbbKZhP0Tuj8VKiSs8u2LFc&e>
&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaVs&s=Yc
fa-Up_0CEFNswZUk3eGbbKZhP0Tuj8VKiSs8u2LFc&e=
Kathy Kleiman:NCSG was deeply divided on this issue.
Jeff Neuman:Steve - Can we post a link to the statement that Milton is
referring to
Paul McGrady:@Kathy - so was the IPC. Tricky topic.
Steve Chan:@Jeff, sure. NCSG comment to the Closed Generics public comment
here:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__forum.icann.org_lists_c
omments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D05feb13_msg00061.html
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__forum.icann.org_lists_
comments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D05feb13_msg00061.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrc
rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk
&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaVs&s=BguCu0SjH3q38gI4KxfvCsFR1PI
0HUiSs_NtTHsIeo4&e>
&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh
FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=QlbBwdawy6LX1PMUZTN3vRdLZMoEKxUFoM5yZGQsaVs&s=Bg
uCu0SjH3q38gI4KxfvCsFR1PI0HUiSs_NtTHsIeo4&e=
Jeff Neuman:@Kathy - thanks for pointing that out. The reason I
introduced it as the NCSG comment is because that is how it was filed
"Comments of Noncommercial Stakeholder Group members on 'Closed generic' TLD
applications"
Kathy Kleiman:@Jeff, it's not an NCSG comment, but a comment signed by
certain NCSG members.
Kathy Kleiman:There are a lot of NCSG members who work for the principle
(and have for years) that Generic Words are not owned by anyone.
Steve Chan:Apologies Kathy, you're right. This is a comment from members
of the NCSG rather than on behalf of the NCSG.
Jeff Neuman:@Kathy - understood. I am not taking sides...just trying to
make sure everyone is able to present their positions. If I am coming
across another way, I apologize
Robin Gross:There is no such thing as a "generic" word in any non-fuzzy
sense.
Michele Neylon:I recall it being a bone of contention at the time
Kathy Kleiman:In the proceeding that the ICANN Board opened for the
discussion of this topic, there was an outpouring of concern - from around
the world -- booksellers, furniture makers, cloud computing platforms.
Michele Neylon:Well one "cloud" company wanted to have .cloud for
themselves
Kathy Kleiman:The other major view in NCSG was that Generic Words belong
to everyone, and that Generic Words can't be registered at trademarks for
their generic purposes. They are open to everyone in the industry, field or
area.
Robin Gross:I don't understand why ICANN should want to regulate business
models in this way.
Milton Mueller:remember that any "generic" term regulation has to apply to
multiple languages and character sets
Robin Gross:Requiring a specific business models seems anti-innovation and
anti-competitive.
Kathy Kleiman:I have never seen such a huge outpouring of concern -
including for .BOOK as just mentioned - from around the world (until we got
to proxy/privacy)
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Alexander, let's use .write, please. I
have concerns about using one of Amazon's TLDs for your example to avoid
misunderstandings later.
Paul McGrady:@Alexander - price gauging isn't unqiue to closed generics.
Ask any brand owner that went through certain recent Sunrises...
Rubens Kuhl:Nope, a registry can increase price for one domain.
Susan Payne:I've experineced unilaterally imposed huge price increases in
the ccTLD space too. I don't see what this has to do with closed generics -
but it's late here and I'm tired
Michele Neylon:I'm confused
Michele Neylon:(which happens a lotO)
Kathy Kleiman:@Michele, right, and the Cloud Industry Forum wrote to the
ICANN Comment Forum to bemoan the locking up of a "highly generic phrase
that is referred to by the industry as a whole and is not under restriction
or ownership by any organizations, but has become in essence an industry
classification."
Milton Mueller:sure
Alexander Schubert:Kristina: Have read your comment only now - didn't read
the comments during the discussion.
Rubens Kuhl:One way is to tell GAC that governments are the ones with
anti-trust authority and better equipped to handle possible issues.
Paul McGrady:@Rubens, much of these things were tried in the last round.
But when your objections are not based in law, they are impervious to good
arguments
Kathy Kleiman:I would like to raise my hand, but having trouble with
browser
Alexander Schubert:Question to all: How could you raise the price for a
single SLD WITHOUT raising the price for others AFTER a domain was
registered? To my understanding that is not possible right now with gTLDs!
Robin Gross:All of the examples provided by those who want to kill closed
generics are by competitors of the applicant not wanting their competitor to
have the name. This is clearly a gaming system.
Alexander Schubert:And regarding "Market Domination": If Amazon registers
.book - and doesn't use it; that creates a leverage for Amazon because there
will be less options for online sales and distribution for books!
Rubens Kuhl:Alexander, it's possible. The registry only needs to send a
notice of increase 6 months ahead to registrars, and that notice can specify
specificlabel.TLD as the only that have increased.
Milton Mueller:Kathy, domain names are not trademarks
Robin Gross:Registration is about providing EXCLUSIVE use. Not saying
someone can't use a word. That point is missing from this argument.
Alexander Schubert:And when we are at it: Why do we laws garnting public
access to beaches ? Why not selling all beaches to the rich - and the poor
can't go to the beach anymore?
Milton Mueller:right Robin whether a TLD is open or closed, it is
exclusively controlled by the registry
Robin Gross:It is a conflation of concepts of right to exclusive use with
right to use at all. Big difference legally.
Susan Payne:@Alexander, even if you increase the prices across the TLD as
a whole, it has an impact on the individual registrant. If that is the
domain you have built your online presence on it is not a cheap or simple
matter to switch so your choices are limited
Alexander Schubert:Rubens: You can raise prices ACCROSS the board - but
not for a SINGLE domain, right?
Milton Mueller:Alexander: there are lots of private beaches. They co-exist
with public beaches. I think we can have both
Rubens Kuhl:Note that this per-label pricing had more occurences of
lowering prices than raising prices. Most premium domains have seen not much
market demand and the price was reduced.
Kathy Kleiman:Tx Jeff
Kathy Kleiman:Could you post the chart you are talking about again?
Rubens Kuhl:Alexander, wrong. It's per label pricing on 2012-round gTLDs.
Alexander Schubert:Rubens: Please define "per label"?
Michele Neylon:Rubens - correct
Michele Neylon:Alex - per domain thing.tld
Michele Neylon:label - domain
Alexander Schubert:OK
Michele Neylon:same thing
Alexander Schubert:Didn't knew that.....
Rubens Kuhl:alexander.gay can cost differently from iam.gay
Michele Neylon:you can raise or lower prices on your premium lists
Michele Neylon:move them between tiers etc etc
Alexander Schubert:Why would then somebody be so stupid to invest Millions
into a domain.newgTLD - if it could be taken away at any given time by
raising the price to a Billion USD?
Milton Mueller:indeed, Alexander why?
Michele Neylon:*some* registries have increased prices for existing
registrations
Michele Neylon:others have frozen the price
Alexander Schubert:I think you just made me a BIG .com fan - again.....
Rubens Kuhl:Alexander, because they don't know that ? ;-)
Milton Mueller:long-term contracts offer protection against hold-up
pricing
Kathy Kleiman:I think they did comment ...
Jeff Neuman:Milton - did I misquote you when saying that something cant be
anti-comptitive in advance ?
Michele Neylon:I've commented on this topic at length in the past
Michele Neylon:not sure if anyone wants me to rehash what I said
previously
Michele Neylon:4 years later :)
Rubens Kuhl:The only way a registry can guarantee it wouldn't happen is
filing a PIC saying so. That would make that committment enforceable by
registrants.
Jeff Neuman:Michele - If you want to discuss your comments you filed,
please do
Michele Neylon:Jeff - happy to if people want me to
Michael Flemming:Michele, would you like me to call on you next?
Michael Flemming:Your feedback is very important.
Michele Neylon:I don't mind :)
Michele
Neylon:https://www.internetnews.me/2013/02/23/5-reasons-why-closed-generic-n
ew-gtlds-should-be-opposed/
Robin Gross:I haven't seen a single free speech group come out for banning
closed generics. It is a business gaming issue, not a free speech issue.
Jeff Neuman:@Michele - you bring a registrar perspective as well. Its
rare we get registrars offering their perspective here ;)
Michael Flemming:Alright, I will call on you right after Alexander.
Michele Neylon:Jeff - lol
Michele Neylon:Jeff - you are a registrar officially :)
Jeff Neuman:I dont voice my opinion as chair
Michele Neylon::)
Alexander Schubert:can I respond?
Rubens Kuhl:Same happens with community TLDs...
Milton Mueller:yes
Milton Mueller:you are just choosing to call it a community TLD instead of
a closed generic.
Milton Mueller:The community TLD is closed in the same sense that a closed
generic is closed
Kathy Kleiman:Good point
Michele Neylon:a regulated TLD can be as well
Kathy Kleiman:to the speaker...
Alexander Schubert:Milton: If you need restrictions: Just file a ton of
pics - and you are done. Like in a community TLD (obviously you do not need
to identify as community priority). I just don't see why you need to
completely "close" a TLD.
Milton Mueller:how is that different from a closed generic Michele?
Alexander Schubert:In a closed generic gTLD sooner or later ALL "rights"
to registrants will vanish - and the domains will NOT be "registered" but
"leased" - and the terms will be shady and intransparent. Kind of the
"payday loan" of the DNS.
Rubens Kuhl:The deterrence for single registrant is not the registrar
equal access clause, since the policy could prescribe that only one
registrant is allowed no matter the registrar... what prevents it today is
one of the PICs, 3c and 3d:
Rubens Kuhl:c. Registry Operator will operate the TLD in a
transparent manner consistent with general principles of openness and
non-discrimination by establishing, publishing and adhering to clear
registration policies. d. Registry Operator of a "Generic String" TLD
may not impose eligibility criteria for registering names in the TLD that
limit registrations exclusively to a single person or entity and/or that
person's or entity's "Affiliates" (as defined in Section 2.9(c) of the
Registry Agreement). "Generic String" means a string consisting of a word or
term that denominates or describes a general class of goods, services,
groups, organizations or things, as opposed to distinguishing a specific
brand of goods, services, groups, organizations or things from those of
others.
Paul McGrady:@Milton - thanks for joining the call today. Very
interesting stuff. Lots to think about,
Robin Gross:The argument for banning closed generics does seem to be very
anti-choice.
Alexander Schubert:Milton: Choices are fine. But there is only ONE
".music" and ONE ".gay" - and we shouldn't toy around with those strings....
Alexander Schubert:Thanks Milton!
Paul McGrady:@Robin - yes. It was a way for less creative competitors to
make sure that a competitor that had the foresight to apply did not get the
commercial advantage that it paid for as an early adopter.
Susan Payne:@Alexander - it's a closed TLD. There aren't registrants in
the traditional sense. So it's not a question registrants losing rights
and being at the mercy of the RO
Alexander Schubert:Susan: The Centralnic thrid level domains (based on
ll.com) are sold as "normal registrations" at registrars - and the consumer
doesn't notice what happens in the background...
Alexander Schubert:The same will happen with "closed generics": Domains
will b sold at registars!
Jeff Neuman:So you were ok with The Food Network getting .food?
Jeff Neuman:And using it in connection with the Food Network
avri doria:Susan, they are basically just platform users?
Kathy Kleiman:.FOOD was the only closed generic to stay as a closed
generics.
Jeff Neuman:Yes Michele thanks
Kathy Kleiman:Dozens opened up to their competitors.
Robin Gross:Dictacting how people should use words like this is complete
micro-management that kills innovation.
Susan Payne:@Avri - Perhaps, but it depends on circumstances. What I was
trying to say was that we shouldn't be assuming that the only use for a TLD
is a retail "pile em high" model
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Preventing an RO from limiting
registrations to itself and its affiliates prevents the RO from
experimenting with using the DNS in innovative ways. It's effectively
impossible to innovate if 3Ps already have registered domains in the TLD.
Alexander Schubert:Robin: Can you give an example how innovation would be
killed? Doesn't minimum wage then also "kills innovation"?
Paul McGrady:I still think the Pros/Cons documents needs a "GAC
Management" Section. Otherwise, we are just driving ourselves off the same
old cliff.
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):You can't try something new if you have
to take 3P interests in their domains into account. If the experiment
doesn't work and the TLD is "closed", only the RO is harmed.
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):And
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):I'm using "harm" very loosely.
Alexander Schubert:And closed TLDs are maybe fine if they are NOT generic
cathegory keyword strings.
Susan Payne:which case?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):be good tonpost the details
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):to post
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):And, of course, numerous objection
proceedings had exactly the opposite outcome.
Rubens Kuhl:I don't think the penalty box is forever. I think this PDP
determines the fate of those applications.
Kathy Kleiman:It was an independent review by an international panel
Alexander Schubert:It would also really be nice to have a link to a source
whoch decribes potential "innovations" which would ONLY work in a "closed
generic"......
Jeff Neuman:Sounds like Michael has a crowd
Rubens Kuhl:Alexander, I have one closed generic idea I won't disclose
since it's a trade secret...
Paul McGrady:This has been a fabulous call. I think it was really
thoughtful. I know I walked away with a bunch to think about.
Alexander Schubert:Thannks!
Alexander Schubert:1:00 am here
Rubens Kuhl:... and other people might have other ideas like that.
avri doria:bye and thanks all for the discusssion
Michele Neylon:11pm here
Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):thx everyone bye for now
Robert Burlingame:Bye
Rubens Kuhl:Bye all!
Kathy Kleiman:Bye All
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