[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] MP3 PPSAI WG - Tuesday 29 April 2014 at 1400 UTC

Nathalie Peregrine nathalie.peregrine at icann.org
Tue Apr 29 17:11:52 UTC 2014


Dear All,


Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services
Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 29 April 2014 at
14:00 UTC at:




On page: 



The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
Calendar page:

 <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/



Luc Seufer - RrSG

Graeme Bunton - RrSG

Tim Ruiz - RrSG

Steve Metalitz - IPC

Kathy Kleiman - RySG

Darcy Southwell - RrSG

Libby Baney - BC

Justin Macy - BC

David Heasley - IPC

Michele Neylon - RrSG

Jennifer Standiford - RrSG

James Bladel - RrSG

Volker Greimann - RrSG

Tobias Sattler - RrSG

Phil Marano - IPC

Christian Dawson - ISPCP

Griffin Barnett - IPC

Valeriya Sherman - IPC

Don Moody - IPC

Alex Deacon - IPC

Kiran Malancharuvil - IPC

Laura Jedeed - BC

Sarah Wyld - RrSG



Gema Campillos - GAC

Osvaldo Novoa - ISPCP

Don Blumenthal - RySG

Roy Balleste - NCUC


ICANN staff:

Marika Konings

Mary Wong

Amy Bivins

Nathalie Peregrine


** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **


Mailing list archives:



Wiki page:

 <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg


Thank you.

Kind regards,






Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 29 April 2014: 

  Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG meeting of 29 April 2014

 Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:Good morning.

  Mary Wong:Hello Sarah and everyone

  Graeme Bunton:Good morning all

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Jennifer Standiford has joined the call

  Kathy K:Steve, I am still coming onto the phone... but what is the
timeline for the subgroup on the technical subgroup?

  Nathalie  Peregrine:tobias Sattler has joined the call

  Tobias Sattler:Sorry, for being late

  Mary Wong:@Kathy, in response to your email request on the list, we've
included the Threshojld Question for Category C in the Notes pod (on the
right side of your screen). Hope this helps!

  Bladel:Or maybe we decided to have the group, but were still working on
its mission?

  Luc Seufer:So first we assemble the avengers and then we find them a

  Mary Wong:@James, I don't believe the WG agreed to it definitively, though
we got a few volunteers should one be formed.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Kiran Malancharuvil has joined the audio bridge

  Mary Wong:The wording on the preliminary conclusion in this part is based
on the WG discussion and AC chat from last week.

  Bladel:I'll defer to Kathy on this point.

  Bladel:Her memory is better than mine. :)

  Michele Neylon:more IRTPs?

  Michele Neylon:NO NO

  Michele Neylon:NO NO

  Michele Neylon::)

  Luc Seufer:not sure you'll get an athos with that behavior :-p

  Luc Seufer:ethos rather

  Mary Wong:Link to AC chat from last week:

  Mary Wong:Excerpt: steve metalitz:I am open to making this an
accreditation requirement IF there is a practical way to do it.  The purpose
of the subgroup would be to answer whether it is practical.   steve
metalitz:"This" = enabling transfer without losing p/p protection.   Kathy
K:Agree with Steve!  Paul McGrady:Agree with Steve and Kathy  Amr
Elsadr:Also agree with Steve.  Val Sherman:+1 @Steve

  Kathy K:+1 James - ID the hurdles, suggest

  Kathy K:ways forward, IRTP out of bounds

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Val Shearman has joined the call

  Bladel:(dont say charter dont say charter).


  Kathy K:Sure 


  Kathy K:agreed

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Phil Marano has joined the call

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Volker Greimann has joined the call

  Bladel:Private Transfer?

  Michele Neylon:+1 to James

  Michele Neylon:audio gone for me

  Kathy K:It was the IPC that provided us with the legitimate purposes for
proxy/privacy services for commercial entities

  Michele Neylon:thoguh that could be my wifi

  Libby Baney:+1 to Kiran

  Bladel:Most major banks also use these services.

  Michele Neylon:conflating p/p with fake pharma is like yelling "think of
the children"

  Justin Macy:+1 Kiran

  Michele Neylon:and is a massive red herring

  Kiran Malancharuvil:and what's wrong with thinking of the children

  Kathy K:That's what I remember too - that the banks used proxy/privacy

  Michele Neylon:Kiran - seriously?

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes seriously.  There are a LOT of people who die from
counterfeit pharma sales online every year.  Ignoring it is kind of

  Michele Neylon:It's got nothing to do with P/P

  Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim

  Kiran Malancharuvil:haha, okay Michele.  

  Luc Seufer:Wow since when a domain name can host content?

  Luc Seufer:+1 Tim

  Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim again

  Michele Neylon:my mother doesn't know what whois is

  Michele Neylon:why the hell should she?

  Bladel:In fact, we conducted an experiment on this in the WHOIS review
team.  Most usesr go to the 'About Us" page, not much awareness of WHOIS.

  Graeme Bunton:no ones mother knows what WHOS is

  Kiran Malancharuvil:People in the consumer protection game use WHOIS, is
your mother in consumer protection? 

  Luc Seufer:We should make a t-shirt out of that one

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm a mother and I know what WHOIS is.  

  Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:My mother knows how to do a whois

  Michele Neylon:Luc - oh :)

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't be disrespectful of women by making these stupid
comments about "mothers."  

  Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:+1 Kiran

  Kathy K:lost connection... please move forward with queue

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Kathy, you're still showing as connected on the bdirge

  Nathalie  Peregrine:would you like a dial ouy?>

  Luc Seufer:I can't speak for the rest of the world but in the EU, entities
willing to do businesses have the  obligation to display their contact
details on their website, not in the whois

  Libby Baney:Isn't it easier to lie on the face of a website (e.g. in the
About Us) than it is supposed to be in the WHOIS data?

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes Libby.  Whois, with it's new verification
requirements would be much safer

  Luc Seufer:which is based on policy

 Luc Seufer:the website req. is based on legal obligation. Hoster will have
to suspend their services if the details are inacurrate. (speaking of the

  Kiran Malancharuvil:So is that content regulation then Luc? 

  Kathy K:still on hold

  Tim Ruiz:Agree with Steve about not making it a requirement to accept
commercial customers as a p/p provider.

  Luc Seufer:@Kiran , yes sort of.

  Libby Baney:@kiran, yes - thanks. So transparent WHOIS data for commercial
activities would then be another data point for consumers to check,
possiblly in additon to the About Us info on the face of a website

  Kiran Malancharuvil:That seems more complicated than verifying Whois data

  Kiran Malancharuvil:All of the questions James is raising are worth

  Mary Wong:Since the Privacy & Proxy Abuse Study was referenced, just a
note that the researchers found a higher-than-average rate of P/P use for
illegal activities, but that among legal users there was also a fairly high
percentage of use among several such type of legal entities (viz. banks and
adult websites).

  Graeme Bunton:+1 James

  Kathy K:back online

  Mary Wong:Note also that the researchers did not distinguish btwn
commercial or non-commercial, entity or individual users - the legal uses
were chosen to "mirror" the illegal categories of activities they were

  Libby Baney:A number of issues/questions were just raised; I hope we get
to address each in turn

  Tim Ruiz:What would we be trying to accomplish by denying "commercial"
users or creating other types of categories? Given the difficulties it would
create with verifying who is and isn't a particular category, enforcement,
etc., doesn't it make more sense to discuss what we want from it and then
see if there isn't a better way to get there, such as in reveal?

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm not sure that B2B providers are expempt from
business licensing, which is public . 

  Michele Neylon:FYI - the US is NOT the World 

  Michele Neylon:#justsaying

  Graeme Bunton:good points Kathy

  Libby Baney:@Kathy - seems we could make the distinction between
comm/non-comm activities, not "entities" -- for the reasons you just note re
e.g. 501(c)(3) 

  Kiran Malancharuvil:There are licensing requirements in the EU 

  Tim Ruiz:@Michele +1

  Michele Neylon:Kiran - not in all countries and not for all types of

  Michele Neylon:please don't preach to me about my own jurisdiction :)

  Kiran Malancharuvil:I am well aware.  I have two of my higher degrees from
the EU.  

  Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't assume that because I'm american I have a
centric approach. 

  Kathy K:Marketplace of ideas vs. marketplace of goods and services - many
organizations, foundations and groups are dedicated to ideas, not goods and

  Bladel:Lets do thist.

  Michele Neylon:rat holes are great

  Bladel:First accredited PP servcie will come online in 2020.

  Michele Neylon:But I don't get paid to do PDPs

  Michele Neylon:so I'll have left by then

  Kathy K:Why - good question, Tim

  Bladel:I vote for the rat hole.  Status quo will be maintained until I


  Michele Neylon:+1 James :)

  Luc Seufer:hum.. how long do we have? 5+ years? :-P

  Libby Baney:@Tim - good point. I'd say this issue is highly important for
us to strike the right balance between transparency and privacy

  Volker Greimann:can we do a rabbit hole instead? they are bigger

  Tim Ruiz:You call the rat hole rhetoric, and make the rat hole even bigger
with your comment.

  Kathy K:I think we should discuss the threshold question at the beginnin
gof next week - with a larger group

  Tim Ruiz:Agree with Kathy

  Bladel:+1 Kathy.

  Tim Ruiz:@volker, rabbit hole it is. I like the association with
Wonderland. ;-)

  Luc Seufer:2 hour pres. should be sufficient

  Kathy K:Prefer not to move ahead -- talk next meeting?

  Tim Ruiz:I would prefer to dicuss this next week again first.

  Tim Ruiz:@Kathy, Agree.

  Kiran Malancharuvil:THanks

  Darcy Southwell:Thanks

  Luc Seufer:Thanks

  Phil Marano:Thank you!


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