[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] @EXT: RE: Use cases: Fundamental, Incidental, and Theoretical

Mon Aug 8 12:13:59 UTC 2016

Terri, Law enforcement investigative methodologies are not typically divulged, for
obvious reasons; there are several approaches to cyber investigations, and
depending on the type of criminal activity, different methodologies utilized.
There is domain name Whois and IP Whois -- both critical first steps. I do not find this line of reasoning particularly persuasive. Transparency in
how these bodies operate is hugely important, because law enforcement and
intelligence agencies are entrusted with special privileges and immense powers.
The citizenry can only hold these bodies to account when the public has
sufficient access to information as to how they are operating. - Ayden

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 4:09 PM, Terri Stumme terri.stumme at legitscript.com wrote:
Law enforcement investigative methodologies are not typically divulged, for
obvious reasons; there are several approaches to cyber investigations, and
depending on the type of criminal activity, different methodologies utilized.
There is domain name Whois and IP Whois -- both critical first steps.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Volker Greimann < vgreimann at key-systems.net > wrote:
I think we are forging ahead into territories reserved for future times, but
when that time comes, I will be interested in learning however law enforcement
manages to do its job without this needed and useful data in areas where it is
not public, such as web hosting, twitter, forum posts, etc.

Best,

Volker

Am 04.08.2016 um 16:31 schrieb Terri Stumme:
Absolutely, Greg. The 2009 law enforcement recommendations regarding amendments
to the RAA addressed Whois data, specifically the need for validating registrant
information. The reason this recommendation was included in the recommendations
is because LE utilizes the data in cyber investigations. There are many
transcripts related to this issue, and LE has conveyed to the ICANN community on
several occasions the importance of Whois data, and how LE utilizes the data in
cyber investigations.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 8:59 AM, Mounier, Grégory < gregory.mounier at europol. europa.eu > wrote:
Dear Rob,

Thanks for sharing the outcome of your chat with ex-FBI and UK LEA agents. I
feel that I need to step in to provide a different perspective than the one you
just gave on the law enforcement use of the WHOIS. It might be a matter of
interpretation but the views expressed by your interlocutors are not shared by
my colleagues working throughout European police cyber divisions.

If European cyber investigators are obviously all aware of the fact that WHOIS
registration data can sometime be inaccurate and not up-to-date (ICANN
compliance reported that for the first quarter of 2015, WHOIS inaccuracy
comprised 74.0 % of complaints), in 90% of cases they will start their
investigations with a WHOIS lookup. This is really the first step.

Despite the lack of accuracy, WHOIS information is useful in so many different
ways. One of the first them is to make correlations and link pieces of
information obtained through other means than from the WHOIS. This was the point
I tried to make on Tuesday during the conference call.

Accurate and reliable WHOIS data helps crime attribution and can save precious
investigation time (you can rule out wrong investigative leads).
It raises the bar and makes it more difficult for criminals to abuse domain
names. It pushes them to resort to more complex techniques such as ID theft to
register domains for malicious purposes.

In short, for LEA WHOIS is certainly not the silver bullet to attribute crime on
line but it is an essential tool in the tool box of law enforcement.

Best,

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann. org [mailto: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce s at icann.org ] On Behalf Of Rob Golding
Sent: 04 August 2016 01:46
To: RDS PDP WG
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Use cases: Fundamental, Incidental, and
Theoretical

>> Theoretical
>> ===========
>> We have seen a couple of proposed use cases that seem to be ideas
>> that people have for useful or harmful ways that RDS can be used, but
>> that do not exist today (at least not that anyone can fully
>> document).
>>
>> For example, there seems to be a desire to use the RDS as a way to
>> issue warrants for information about registrants. While this may be
>> useful, this is not possible today (even with RDAP, I note).

It not only is possible today, it's also "common" (although thankfully not
frequent)

Registrars get served warrants for details about registrants, and the _only_
information from WHOIS that's "needed" or used for such cases is the name of the
Registrar.

I had the pleasure of meeting Chris Tarbell, ex-FBI Cyber Crime, at HostingCon
last week - asked about WHOIS/domain data he said "we dont use it"

Last year at the UKNOF event in Sheffield I spent quite some time talking with
some amazing people from the UK CyberCrime departments - asked the same
questions, they confirmed that although whois _might_ be looked at to see if it
matches _data they already have_ for confirmation, it's not used or relied on.

Which beggars the question, should "LawEnforcement" use cases even be part of
the discussions ?

Rob
--
Rob Golding rob.golding at astutium.com
Astutium Ltd, Number One Poultry, London. EC2R 8JR

* domains * hosting * vps * servers * cloud * backups *
______________________________ _________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
*******************

DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the
named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy,
distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the
information contained in it.
Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails
from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol
unless otherwise indicated.

*******************

______________________________ _________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l istinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

--
Terri Stumme Investigative Analyst

_______________________________________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

-- 
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

______________________________ _________________
gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/ listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

--
Terri Stumme Investigative Analyst

Ayden Férdeline Statement of Interest
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/attachments/20160808/cb75be88/attachment.html>