[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Mp3, Attendance & AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG call 22 June 2016 105:00 UTC

Kathy Kleiman kathy at kathykleiman.com
Wed Jun 22 14:36:47 UTC 2016


Hi Chuck,

I am objecting. There is a real world going on. Children are graduating, 
people are preparing for travel, mothers (and fathers) are preparing for 
the upcoming trip. Normally WGs are in a quiet period this week: they 
don't put out bold new materials, they don't hold midnight meetings (or 
any meetings -- RPM WG canceled for this week).

So let me be the first to share very strong objections to the procedural 
approach -- too much, too fast, too late.  I apologize, but I have to 
raise this objection for all of us who are indeed doing this job as 
volunteers, and have a real world of jobs and families in the background.

Let's stop and talk about these dramatic new approaches and new versions 
in Helsinki. I strongly object.

Best, Kathy


On 6/22/2016 9:34 AM, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
>
> For those who were unable to participate in the this week’s WG call, I 
> strongly encourage you listen to the recording before Friday.  We 
> spent a lot of time going over the latest version of the ‘*Possible 
> approach to consensus in deliberation of possible requirements for RDS 
> PDP WG*’ that I sent out about 3.5 hours before the WG meeting.  As 
> stated in the meeting, our goal is to ensure that the full WG is 
> supportive of the approach before the Helsinki meetings.  If we do not 
> receive any strong objections by Friday, we will assume that we can 
> proceed with this approach.  Note that there were no objections 
> expressed in the meeting.
>
> I reattached the latest approach document to make it easy to review it 
> while listening to the recording.
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org 
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Nathalie 
> Peregrine
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2016 3:42 AM
> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> *Cc:* gnso-secs at icann.org
> *Subject:* [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Mp3, Attendance & AC Chat Next-Gen RDS 
> PDP WG call 22 June 2016 105:00 UTC
>
> Dear All,
>
> Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and 
> the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call 
> held on Wednesday, 22 June 2016 at 05:00 UTC.
>
> ***Mp3**:*http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-22jun16-en.mp3 
> <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-22jun16-en.mp3%A0><http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-22jun16-en.mp3%A0>
> <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-14jun16-en.mp3>
>
> The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO 
> Master Calendar page:
>
> http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar 
> <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#nov>
>
> ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
>
> Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/
>
> Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/ix2OAw
>
> Thank you.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Nathalie
>
> -------------------------------
>
> *Adobe Connect chat transcript for **Wednesday** 22 June 2016*
>
> Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the RDS PDP WG call on 
> Wednesday 22 June 2016 at 5:00 UTC
>
>   Nathalie Peregrine:Agenda page: https://community.icann.org/x/iyCOAw
>
>   Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:Morning everyone...
>
>   Nathalie Peregrine:Welcome!
>
>   Chuck Gomes:Hello all.
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello Everyone
>
>   Chuck Gomes:Welcome to your first WG call Maxim.
>
>   Holly Raiche:Hello all
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):thanks
>
>   stephanie perrin:not hearing anything, is that just me or is there 
> nothing going on  yet?
>
>   stephanie perrin:thanks Chuck!
>
>   Sana Ali:no
>
>   Sana Ali:not nice
>
>   Holly Raiche:It's a TERRIFIC time for the call
>
>   Sana Ali::p
>
>   stephanie perrin:No and I am at the kids to do baby duty.....so I 
> will be typing not talking, as if I wake him I it will be my turn on 
> deck....
>
>   stephanie perrin:1 am for those of us in Toronto, Hi Sana!!
>
>   Michele Neylon:I'm still on coffee number 1
>
>   Sana Ali:Hello Stephanie!
>
>   Michele Neylon:My new Japanese coffee making kit makes a nice coffee 
> though
>
>   Holly Raiche:@ Michele - we'llwait til you're on No. 2
>
>   Chris Pelling:Good morning all
>
>   Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB: two cups ahead of you Michele
>
>   Michele Neylon:yummy coffee 
> http://www.fat.ie/equipment/kalita-wave-coffee-dripper.html
>
>   Susan Kawaguchi:@Stephanie is this a new grandchild?
>
>   stephanie perrin:he is almost 9 months now Susan....still pretty new 
> though!
>
>   Susan Kawaguchi:9 months is  a fun age!
>
>   stephanie perrin:and so much more enjoyable as a grandmother!!
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):my SOI 
> https://community.icann.org/display/gnsosoi/Maxim+Alzoba+SOI
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:hello. can we please have scrolling enabled on this 
> document. thanks
>
>   Lisa Phifer:@Ayden sync is off
>
>   Lisa Phifer:This document, and all others referenced during this 
> call, can be found here:https://community.icann.org/x/iyCOAw
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:gated access
>
>   stephanie perrin:When do we figure out the purpose of the RDS and 
> whether we need a new one?
>
>   Lisa Phifer:@Stephanie purpose is one of the "big three" identified 
> as the first topic of discussion in task 12
>
>   Lisa Phifer:The foundational question of whether a new one is needed 
> is after public comment on the first initial report
>
>   stephanie perrin:Those are purposes of the data, not purpose of the 
> collection use and dsiclosure of registration data, a far more 
> fundamental question.
>
>   stephanie perrin:data elements
>
>   Sana Ali:yes important distinction stephanie
>
>   stephanie perrin:Thanks Holly, I had indeed not seen it as I have 
> been driving for 5 hours and I am taking this don't text and drive 
> thing seriously.....
>
>   stephanie perrin:very helpful
>
>   Lisa Phifer:"volun-told"
>
>   stephanie perrin:I still have outstanding requirements to send in.
>
>   Susan Kawaguchi:sure
>
>   stephanie perrin:Let me make a suggestion, recognizing the huge work 
> already done.  Could we have a section on legal requirements that 
> cannot be broken?  Such as constitutional requirements for due process 
> and criminal procedure, human rights obligations, data retention 
> restrictions, etc etc
>
>   Lisa Phifer:@Stephanie, there can certainly be a group for laws
>
>   Lisa Phifer:currently we have one "applicable law"
>
>   stephanie perrin:I guess it is a group....recognizing that there are 
> numerous lens one could apply to this
>
>   stephanie perrin:In other words, we cannot bury legal requirements 
> in the possible requirements list.  Complying with law is not a 
> possible requirement, it is an obligation
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):I think it might be a good idea to use 
> "applicable law" as a tag - due to some jurisdictional systems have 
> different areas regulated e.t.c.
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):just to mark it as a reason for the question
>
>   Susan Kawaguchi:We do have an applicable law group
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:good point @stephanie - i would like to see both a 
> differentiation in this document between legal obligations and 
> possible requirements
>
>   Sana Ali:+1 stephanie
>
>   Holly Raiche:Exactly my issue
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:Just a point of clarification, @Holly, an EU 
> directive is a requirement on the member states to achieve a 
> particular result.
>
>   stephanie perrin:I think that is what I am driving at.  Yes, some of 
> us have signed on to both the Cybercrime convention, and convention 
> 108.  That becomes a legal obligation then, subject to applicable 
> derogations, but it should be noted that a significant number of 
> jurisdictions have overriding obligations (which they and their GAC 
> members may or may not be acutely aware of)
>
>   Holly Raiche:@ Stephanie -I understand tha, but the EU Directives 
> are requirements on national entities to enact laws- and my point is 
> that it's too hard to put things into a category call laws when 
> requirements may be more orless binding
>
>   stephanie perrin:I understand Holly, but regionally at least for the 
> EU, it is useful to summarize via the Directive, and as long as the EU 
> holds together after Thursday, the Regulation will clarify a lot.
>
>   Alex Deacon:wouldn't the realm of all "legal obligations" be pretty 
> huge?   Maybe lets make sure we focus on relevant laws (??), and dont 
> overwork ourselves....
>
>   Holly Raiche:@ Alex - yes, it will be huge - BUT do we really want 
> obligations (or varying 'binding' nature scatered across categories?
>
>   Sana Ali: @Alex lets also not waste our work by lumping things in a 
> way that obfuscates the importance of certain requirements over others.
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):obligations are relevant to 
> registries/registrars of that particular jurisdiction they are based 
> in ... so it is not going to be one size fits it all\
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):could we use legal requirement as a note and 
> not as a group?
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:@Alex yes, this is a good point. we could make our 
> work easier by deciding upon a standard by which to assess whether or 
> not the RDS complies with, say, data privacy laws. we have to start 
> somewhere
>
>   stephanie perrin:I like that idea Maxim, could add a column to t he 
> table, and this would give that requirement a kind of wild card status
>
>   Michele Neylon:Applicable laws is saner
>
>   Holly Raiche:@Maxim  - agree
>
>   Michele Neylon:As an Irish company we aren't going to base anything 
> around Russian law
>
>   Lisa Phifer:@Maxim, it is possible to sort the list to look at 
> possible requirements that come from a particular source (law)
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Michele, that is why I think it is a good 
> idea just to mark thing being caused by some of laws and not to group 
> by it
>
>   Sana Ali:Its a good idea Maxim.
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Lisa it differs a lot from jurisdiction to 
> jurisdiction ... different ideas on what to regulate
>
>   Lisa Phifer:@Maxim for example if you want to see all possible 
> requirements from the Africa Union convention, just filter on "D31"
>
>   Lisa Phifer:If you want all from AU plus Ghana + South Africa, 
> filter on D31+D38+D39.
>
>   Sana Ali: applicability based on jurisdiction is not really our 
> place to determine...the  outcome is going to be internationally 
> applicable. doesnt matter about russiann or irish law. both are 
> 'applicable'
>
>   Lisa Phifer:In other words, the coding lets you look at any combo 
> you wish
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Lisa it is more complicated in Russia
>
>   stephanie perrin:There are intrinsic TBDF problems though, as for 
> instance an EU citizen can shop globallly and will still be entitled 
> to protection adn the defence of his DPA
>
>   stephanie perrin:This is why we need to harmonize up, not down
>
>   Sana Ali:yes, agreed
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Sana, the issue is, some Registries are 
> outside of US, and thus the local law regulates what is going on there 
> ... and it does not have to be international law ... but outcome 
> affects users across the globe
>
>   stephanie perrin:Quite frankly the problem is that this is a 
> juggernaut, with inherent built in contradictions.  Any approach is 
> bound to hit walls, and we need to reserve the right to object to 
> various pieces when we hit a wall
>
>   Sana Ali:@Maxim, yes i am aware of this. I was responding to Michele 
> about jursidictions being a determining factor in deciding whether 
> laws are a"pplicable" to us or not.
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:Hi @Maxim. It is not reasonable for us to be 
> determining what is applicable in each and every territory. I would 
> suggest that we need to decide on one standard to comply with - I 
> would respectfully suggest, say, the Charter of Fundamental Rights of 
> the EU - and allow for compliance with local laws, where applicable.
>
>   stephanie perrin:I do feel like this working group feels like a 
> round of bumper cars like we used to have at the cheap carnivals...
>
>   stephanie perrin:Any attempt to approach the problem feels like th 
> rod that tied your car to the ceiling....
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:* where there is a conflict (not where applicable)
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Adyen , I am not sure this approach would be 
> seen ok in GAC :)
>
>   Farell FOLLY:+1 Maxime
>
>   Lisa Phifer:Nathalie Peregrine: Agenda page: 
> https://community.icann.org/x/iyCOAw
>
>   Holly Raiche:@ Maxim - any suggestions?
>
>   stephanie perrin:certain members of the GAC, eg the observers from 
> the COuncil of Europe, might be more sympathetic.  Unfortunately, most 
> GAC delegations do not have privacy and human rights experts on board.
>
>   Sana Ali:well the gac has an opportunity to comment, as do all other 
> so/acs
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Holly - just to use "law" as a tag and not as 
> a group
>
>   Sana Ali:should we really pre-empt their comments and shape our work 
> accordingly
>
>   Sana Ali:(no)
>
>   Nathalie Peregrine:Remote Participation for GNSO sessions (and Cross 
> Community sessions) for ICANN56 can be found here: 
> https://community.icann.org/x/yCWOAw
>
>   Holly Raiche:@ Maxim - completely agree - I think I've already said that
>
>   Marika Konings:correct
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):GAC is more Telecom ministries than 
> Internation Affairs, I think
>
>   Holly Raiche:@Maxim -there is a cerain logic in that
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):thus they might be more focused on technical 
> part of things
>
>   Daniel K. Nanghaka:that's right GAC members are from ministries
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):than on Human rights
>
>   Rod Rasmussen:Week after is 4th of July in US, so lots of folks on 
> vacation then that would be participating anyways, so good call to skip.
>
>   Sana Ali:1st of July in Canada
>
>   Sana Ali:;)
>
>   Rod Rasmussen:Yep, we did our own "Brexit" a while ago. :-)
>
>   Sana Ali:lol
>
>   stephanie perrin:We will find a way to celebrate!
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):safe flights
>
>   Chris Pelling:oh the brexit fun tmorrow!
>
>   Holly Raiche:See a lot of you there
>
>   Sana Ali:thank you Maxim and Chuck
>
>   stephanie perrin:Good luck on that Chris !
>
>   Chris Pelling:see you in Helsinki - safe travels :)
>
>   Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:See you next week
>
>   Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all
>
>   Daniel K. Nanghaka:thanks
>
>   Sana Ali:see you next week!
>
>   Ayden Ferdeline:Thank you all. Safe travels to Helsinki
>
>   Fabricio Vayra:thnx
>
>   Farell FOLLY:bye all
>
>   Michele Neylon:ciao
>
>
>
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