[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Mp3, Attendance, AC recording & AC Chat from Next-Gen RDS PDP WG call on Tuesday, 04 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC
Michelle DeSmyter
michelle.desmyter at icann.org
Tue Apr 4 21:20:50 UTC 2017
Dear All,
Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call held on Tuesday, 04 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC.
MP3: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-pdp-04apr17-en.mp3
AC Recording: https://participate.icann.org/p644jplsn4e/
<http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-13sep16-en.mp3> <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-06sep16-en.mp3>
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#nov>
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/
Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/sMLRAw
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Michelle DeSmyter
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AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG Tuesday, 04 April 2017
Michelle DeSmyter:Welcome to the GNSO Next-Gen RDS PDP Working Group teleconference on Tuesday, 04 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC for 90 minutes.
Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda wiki page: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_sMLRAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=n_jBF3SB9Zm9f4jWnOu7SyaXb-qSdOYJ6-E-0dNpV-8&e=
Chuck Gomes:Greetings to everyone.
Chris Pelling:Afternoon all :)
Chris Pelling:wow - feedback
Michele Neylon:huh?
Michele Neylon:Am I on the wrong call?
Carlton Samuels:Howdy all
Stephanie Perrin:Hi Carlton!
Juan Manuel Rojas:Good afternoon
Carlton Samuels:Hi Steph, good to see you
Daniel K. Nanghaka:Hi All
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello All
Bastiaan Goslings:thanks for having me ;-)
Theo Geurts:welcome
tobrien:(waves) hello all, glad to help
Chris Pelling:PLease unlock and allow zooming
Chris Pelling:^^@staff
Chris Pelling:ta :)
Lisa Phifer:@Chris done
Lisa Phifer:Annotated results being displayed now can be downloaded from https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_download_attachments_64078512_AnnotatedResultsForACDisplay-2DPoll-2D28MarchCall.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=zYaeIr9vJfv0yH_QUwtxUC8HXTXB00sTD4_SDeva8Xw&e=
Greg Aaron:no one here is representing SSAC officially
andrew sullivan:Apologies for tardiness -- my previous meeting ran long
Roger Carney:+1 Chuck
Lisa Phifer:proposed alternative: A purpose of RDS is to facilitate possible dissemination of gTLD registration data in accordance with applicable policy.
Greg Aaron:"possible" adds nothing. Either an RDS disseminates data, or it does not.
Greg Aaron:Either an RDS disseminates data, or it does not. WHAT data is as per policy.
Fabricio Vayra:COMMENT: Aren't things like "accuracy", "accordance with applicable policy" etc. requirements in support of a purpose "Purpose of RDS is to support domain name registration and maintenance by providing appropriate access to registration data to enable a reliable mechanism for identifying, establishing and maintaining the ability to contact Registrants"
tobrien:+1 Greg
Greg Aaron:To say "possibly" is the same as saying that an RDS MIGHT display data.
Fabricio Vayra:+1 Greg
Fabricio Vayra:and I'd say "display" is also a possbile requirement in support of a purpose
Amr Elsadr:Note that "access", whether it be public or gated is a future task for this working group to tackle as per the workplan.
Greg Aaron:An RDS WILL display data. What data, and how much, is per policy to be decided. But we know that an RDS will display data, and "possibly" confuses things.
Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):I don't think I like "display". A sign displays information. An RDS returns information in response to a query.
Stuart Clark:how about disemination of selected registrayion data?
Vicky Sheckler:sorry i'm late
Lisa Phifer:Alt D: A purpose of RDS is to provide an authoritative source of information about, for example, domaincontacts, domain names and name servers for gTLDs, [based on approved policy].
andrew sullivan:I continue to find it bizarre that we talk about the RDS in terns of collecting the data, since that's what registration systems do. We seem to be equivocating on whether we are making new registry policy or are not. I _think_ what we're saying is that the data-collection side of the RDS is the union of data in the registrar and registry databases. Is that right?
Stephanie Perrin:Can you see my hand up? (once bitten with adobe problems, always shy.....)
Amr Elsadr:We see it, Stephanie.
andrew sullivan:@Stephanie: yes
Stephanie Perrin:thanks :-)
Carlton Samuels:@Scott: +1 - the RDS is an authoritative source of DNS data in that it collects, stores and ultimately disseminates that data in keeping with policy. So both purpose statements are needed
Lisa Phifer:Reminder charter asks us to defined requirements and purpose of Registration Data and Directory Services in phase 1, followed by detailed policies to support those in Phase 2
Carlton Samuels:@Greg: yes, two verbs may make two statements or conjoin them
Lisa Phifer:Proposed split: A purpose is to provide an authoritative source... separate from A purpose is to facilitate dissemination....
Greg Shatan:Disseminate: "to spread or disperse"
Mike Hammer:provide access or make available?
Carlton Samuels:'dissseminate' = spread, communicate, put out, etc.
Stephanie Perrin:@Lisa yes.
Michele Neylon:disseminate is active
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 michele
Lisa Phifer:Here is a combined option: (1) A purpose is to provide an authoritative source... separate from (2) A purpose is to provide access to...
Lisa Phifer:Note that "Access" is to be addressed by this WG per our charter
David Cake:+1 Michele
Jim Galvin (Afilias):@lisa - yes
Carlton Samuels:@Michele: This word presumes an affirmative response to a request; the RDS is queried.
Amr Elsadr:To add to Lisa, working out the details on "access" is task 12c in the updated workplan, where the nuances of public and gated "access" will be discussed.
Michele Neylon:Carlton - which word?
Carlton Samuels:@Michele 'disseminate'
Lisa Phifer:@Carlton It doesn't say how access is provided (direct query, referral, etc, all on the table for Phase 2)
Stephanie Perrin:+1 Marc
Carlton Samuels:@Lisa; Very true!
Michele Neylon:Carlton - no it doesn't
Tim O'Brien:appologies
andrew sullivan:I thought in CPH we said 'in the technical sense' or 'from an aithoritative source' or something like that for this authoritative business
Michele Neylon:I'd hire a PR company to disseminate our news ..
andrew sullivan:the point is that we want the authoritative data in the data-theoretic sense -- not from a cache, not from a stale source, &c &c.
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 andrew
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 chuck to poll
Lisa Phifer:Note last week
Lisa Phifer:call ended with an action to WG members to volunteer to define "authoritative"
andrew sullivan:Let's punt
Theo Geurts:agreed Andrew
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_rfc_rfc1035.txt&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=yL2CE6gpzgXqdylB8Q3GKYkJ7rBz6plgMbGYjLQQ9Kc&e= ?
Mike Hammer:Is the sense that authoritative=source of record?
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):that RFC 1035 has some kind of definition
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):of authoritative data
Carlton Samuels:@Mike: Yes, that is the sense I understand it. In context, the data is verified and verifiable
Amr Elsadr:Definition of "authoritative" as per the "thick" WHOIS PDP: ""Authoritative, withrespect to provision of Whois services, shall be interpreted as to signify the single database within ahierarchical database structure holding the data that is assumed to be the final authority regardingthe question of which record shall be considered accurate and reliable in case of conflicting records;administered by a single administrative [agent] and consisting of data provided by the registrants ofrecord through their registrars."
Stephanie Perrin:@Amr yes!
Amr Elsadr:The proposed shorter version was "the data set to be relied upon in caseof doubt".
Carlton Samuels:@Amr: +1. No need to reinvent the wheel here!
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 andrew
Stephanie Perrin:Right and it has no relation to accuracy
Lisa Phifer:All, refer to ICANN58 and last week's call notes for discussion about the Thick WHOIS definition and other interpretations given by WG members
Amr Elsadr:@Stephanie: Actually, there is reference to the assumption of accuracy of authoritative data in the "thick" WHOIS definition.
andrew sullivan:For geeks. "authoritative" means something like "data-theoretic canonical source", not "acciurate picture of the world", which is why "authoritative" is in use in the spec for RDAP. But I appreciate that other communities use the term in a different way, particularly with the connotation of data accurancy
Carlton Samuels:@Amr: Which is why I used the word 'verified' since it includes the notion of accuracy and 'ftiness'.
Alex Deacon:+1 andrew
andrew sullivan:accuracy. For nerds like me, authoritative data is _by definition_ accurate in the sense that it's the real data, but it is not accurate in the sense of capturing the world
Mike Hammer:+1 Andrew
Theo Geurts:Agreed Andrew
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):+1 Andrew
Michael Palage:Here is the reconsideration request I just referenced - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources_pages_reconsideration-2D17-2D1-2Dsmith-2Drequest-2D2017-2D03-2D16-2Den&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=0cb22avyy0PJ_skXdFUbqFGhi5z9IH1myIF_B_hBtyE&e=
Lisa Phifer:Authoritative IS the goal of 2a, if separated from 2b, hard to poll on 2a without it
Roger Carney:@andrew I like the nerd definition except I would say "may not be reflect the real world"
Stephanie Perrin:The problem with any use of the word accurate assumes verification, a function which we have not yet got to.
Lisa Phifer:C: A purpose of RDS policy is to facilitate the accuracy of gTLD registration data.
Lisa Phifer:A: Same thing, plus footnote
Stephanie Perrin:Amr yes, Thick was not doing what we are doing. We are doing a more or less de novo review of RDS. Thick was not., am I right? It assumed the verification requirements already pushed into the 2013 RAA?
Amr Elsadr:@Stephanie: Correct. It was also meant to be helpful in eventual migration to a de novo RDS, especially from a consistent labelling and display perspective.
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 on A and delete
Lisa Phifer:How many people on this call woudl prefer to delete 5) entirely?
Mike Hammer:Not meant as a troll - Is accuracy important?
Greg Shatan:Yes
Lisa Phifer:Does "set this aside" mean delete 5 or keep as A (with footnote deferring "accuracy" to that charter question)
Vicky Sheckler:i don't understand concept re: accuracy is outside of RDS
Mike Hammer:The discussion has been about information going in but what if "We" know that there is inaccurate data in the RDS?
Vicky Sheckler:agree with chuck
Lisa Phifer:Our charter asks this WG to identify requirements for accuracy - that could be none, or a specific set of requirements
Lisa Phifer:RDS policy covers what data is collected and maintained, not just what data is accessed and how
andrew sullivan:I'd just as soon delete 5. My "don't care about this" remark is basically that I think the policy is crazy. If we had proper controls on access the incentive to lie wouldn't be there except for criminals, and any policy attempting to make them behave is doomed
Theo Geurts:+1 Jim Galvin
Alex Deacon:lol
Bastiaan Goslings:I agree with Jim: the RDS is the repository that conatins registration data. It would be agnostic with regard to the accuracy of these data
Vicky Sheckler:disagree re: accuracy outside of RDS. whether it is a purpose or requirement we an discuss, but suggesting that some diligence /s afeguards to improve accuracy in registrant data is important
Mike Hammer:@Alex, I think abuse and criminal activity is a much larger cause of bad data.
Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:Sorry to arrive late. Read Chat - Working on Discussion Notes:
Lisa Phifer:Alternative A: 5) A purpose of RDS policy is to facilitate the accuracy [#] of gTLD registration data.Footnote: [#] "Accuracy" as it pertains to the RDS will be defined later in this PDP (see Charterquestion on Accuracy).
Alex Deacon:@mike agree
Mike Hammer:The solution to "true" privacy concerns is to make private registration services responsible for the domains they are listed as the registrant of.
Lisa Phifer:Policy was added after discussing this same point previously (RDS involvement)
Lisa Phifer:Green = delete now
Stephanie Perrin:we do not, in my view, have decent metrics on accuracy....where the inaccurate data is coming from, what the metrics of verification efforts tell us in terms of verification policy and implementation, what use LEAs get from bad data from criminals, what criminals will do if they cannot insert bad data in their registrations, etc. SO I am not optimistic, absent unavailable data, that this will be an easy discussion.
Lisa Phifer:Red = retain for future discussion
Mike Hammer:Perhaps set it aside for a specific time frame.
Tim O'Brien:from my own analysis, accuracy is horrid (depending on the region/country/registrar)
Jim Galvin (Afilias):+1 to chuck proposal to defer on this for now
Greg Aaron:wait... if you're opposed? Please make choice clear, Chuck.
Lisa Phifer:Proposal: Lacking clear direction, and unlikely to get clear direction from poll, retain Alternative A for now and include clear notation there is divergence on this, will revisit later
Vicky Sheckler:apologies but I need to leave early.
Marika Konings:Please make sure to mute your microphone when not speaking.
andrew sullivan:agree w/ Marc but don't care too much
Mike Hammer:Agree with putting a placeholder
Tim O'Brien:same thing
Tim O'Brien:put placeholder, and table conversation
Lisa Phifer:Alternative is placeholder: "Accuracy as it pertains to the RDS will be defined later in this PDP (see Charter question on Accuracy)."
Lisa Phifer:That's Alt A without the actual purpose
David Cake:The term tabling doesn't mean the same thing to everyone, best avoided for international meetings
Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:Inaccurate sources: typos, out-of-date, deliberate. To minimize inaccuracy typos can be auto-caught.Out-of-date means periodic registration data confirmation. Both have technical solutions. Deliberate falsehood is an issue in itself and beyond this wg.
andrew sullivan:Ok with me
Rod Rasmussen:Green checkmark is there :-)
Juan Manuel Rojas:+1
Rod Rasmussen:I'm always last on roll call...
Lisa Phifer:sync off, you can scroll yourselves
Lisa Phifer:This is merge of https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_download_attachments_64076964_Sullivan-2DSuggestionForPurposeInDetail.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=8Rd-AjafXuG50EOGpq-DKee002a04UJRbKxyQk6_JwU&e=
Lisa Phifer:and Annex D of EWG report for thin data elements only https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_en_system_files_files_final-2Dreport-2D06jun14-2Den.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=v5mnTVHgVi3NblxEDZxNjCoUJGeYi6JrjosdUH1wE04&e=
Lisa Phifer:The merged doc being displayed can be downloaded from https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_download_attachments_64078512_Merged-2DThinDataPurposes-2Dv1.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=Lt5HL89F0a9oXqWXjeWJwZFctTnTxFd2qxRihgIW90c&s=vEMKVcEwpapnIP6AxFX9ctePwhDBWhNgbWhzLGUIHNA&e=
Chuck Gomes:Let's bring up annex D
Lisa Phifer:@Rod, @Andrew - Andrew worked from specific purposes in the RDS statement of purpose. Rod worked from individual purposes for collection/access. Which is the btetter starting point?
Lisa Phifer:Or both
andrew sullivan:I don't care -- the idea that I had was to demonstrate, really, that one ends up at the same point :)
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:speak up please
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):low volume :(
Marc Anderson:I have to drop. Thank you all
Bastiaan Goslings:When we are talking about 'privavcy'we are talking about who has access to data and under which conditions right? That is a separate question IMO from the one which (categories of) data the RDS needs to contain based on the purposes we come up with
Theo Geurts:we talking about what is accesable at a "basic" level, gated access comes later.
Alex Deacon:gotta run...thanks!
Bastiaan Goslings:@Theo: thanks. That suggests to me that 'privacy' should also come later
Chris Pelling:Thanks all :)
Sara Bockey:thanks all
andrew sullivan:thank you all and bye
Nathalie Coupet:Bye all
Theo Geurts:cyas
Patrick Lenihan:Thanks to Each and All!
Juan Manuel Rojas:Thanks all, bye all
Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all
Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Bye.
Sam Lanfranco npoc/csih:bye
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