[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge

Wed Jan 4 16:08:53 UTC 2017

Thanks, Greg A.  I'll stop typing the response I was working on.  You
covered it more clearly and succinctly than I could.

Greg S.

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Victoria Sheckler <vsheckler at riaa.com>
wrote:

> +1
>
>
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-
> bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Aaron
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 4, 2017 11:04 AM
> *To:* Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>; Greg Shatan <
> gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
>
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge
>
>
>
> Volker, those people are not “resellers” in industry parlance.  They are
> “account holders” as per the RAA.
>
>
>
> Well-defined, industry-standard terms exist for these things.  Let’s use
> those terms whenever possible.  Making up our own terms tends to make
> things more confusing than they need to be.
>
>
>
> The RAA (https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-
> specs-2013-09-17-en ) defines:
>
>
>
> 1.1 "Account Holder" means the person or entity that is paying for the
> Registered Name or otherwise controls the management of the registered
> name, when that person or entity is not the Registered Name Holder.
>
>
>
> 1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in Registrar's
> distribution channel for domain name registrations (a) pursuant to an
> agreement, arrangement or understanding with Registrar or (b) with
> Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some or all Registrar Services,
> including collecting registration data about Registered Name Holders,
> submitting that data to Registrar, or facilitating the entry of the
> registration agreement between the Registrar and the Registered Name
> Holder.
>
>
>
> All best,
>
> --Greg
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-
> bounces at icann.org <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Volker
> Greimann
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 4, 2017 10:51 AM
> *To:* Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge
>
>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open
> end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No
> reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of
> knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their
> clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients.
>
> I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things
> at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship
> may be".
>
>
>
> Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan:
>
> Volker,
>
>
>
> What types of cases are you thinking of?  And how do reseller agreements
> in these cases reflect that difference?
>
>
>
> In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent"
> relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or
> by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party,
> the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to
> deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to
> the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent
> exchanged with a third party bind the principal."?  Or are we using the
> term "agent" more loosely?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>
> This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the
> registrant than agents of the registrar.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg:
>
> How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working
> on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing
> contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some
> resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no
> direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a
> subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with
> them other than purely a reseller).
>
> Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no
> contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In
> more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a
> registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the
> reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were
> dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these
> requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a
> registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing
> with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but
> that is my recollection).
>
> Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are
> followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be
> doing so.
>
> Is that any clearer?
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>
> Happy New Year all!  You are probably going to hate me because I am going
> to slow us down again.  The problem is that we frame the discussion and
> thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to
> this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important.  For
> instance on  a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to
> look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in
> this matter.  Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the
> reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the
> ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this
> happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is
> interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the
> lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under
> US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.).  IN my
> responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the
> registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin
> data.  The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an
> entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated
> disclosure instrument.  So framing this in terms of collection is in my
> view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll
> (always possible).
>
> Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most
> grateful.  It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it
> better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....
>
> cheers Stephanie Perrin
>
>
>
> On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think
> might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017:  “I think people
> (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus
> because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so
> hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”
>
> If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.
>
> I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me.  I
> have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one
> person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have
> a lot of patience.  Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead
> and the leadership team has to pull me back.
>
> It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem
> like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid
> some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier.  We need to all
> keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS)
> issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress.  If we
> are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.
>
> As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan
> Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t
> be.  But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of
> our efforts.
>
> I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that
> was distributed last week.  You have until Friday of this week to complete
> it.  Here is the link to the poll:  https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL
> .
>
> Happy New Year.
>
> Chuck
>
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> --
>
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
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>
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>
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
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>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
>
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu
>
>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing
> list gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/
> listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
> --
>
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
>
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu
>
>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
>
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
>
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
>
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu
>
>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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