[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
Greg Aaron
gca at icginc.com
Sun Jan 22 21:16:01 UTC 2017
Shane, you said that “with regards to ‘thin data’ is that we need *some* purpose for both gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it.”
You may be making an erroneous assumption. AFAIK, thin data is not protected by privacy laws. Generally, privacy laws are designed to protect personally identifiable information, and not all types of information. Privacy laws allow the _collection_ personal information for legitimate purposes. Privacy laws are not designed to prohibit the _publication_ of non-personally-identifiable information.
This is why ccTLDs in countries with strong privacy laws (such as in the EU) DO collect and publish thin data in their WHOIS systems They do it because it’s allowed, and because there are legitimate reasons to collect AND publish it.
And sometimes they publish thick data. For example you will see registrant and contact information below. That’s published because companies are not individuals.
All best,
--Greg
Domain name:
virgin.co.uk
Registrant:
Virgin Enterprises Limited
Registrant type:
Unknown
Registrant's address:
The Battleship Building
179 Harrow Road
London
EN
W2 6NB
United Kingdom
Data validation:
Nominet was able to match the registrant's name and address against a 3rd party data source on 21-Apr-2015
Registrar:
Corporation Service Company (UK) Limited [Tag = CSC-CORP-DOMAINS]
URL: http://www.cscprotectsbrands.com
Relevant dates:
Registered on: before Aug-1996
Expiry date: 07-Nov-2017
Last updated: 03-Nov-2015
Registration status:
Registered until expiry date.
Name servers:
a4.nstld.com
f4.nstld.com
g4.nstld.com
h4.nstld.com
j4.nstld.com
k4.nstld.com
l4.nstld.com
Domain name: virgin.ca
Domain status: registered
Creation date: 2001/01/31
Expiry date: 2017/03/10
Updated date: 2015/02/02
DNSSEC: Unsigned
Registrar:
Name: CSC Corporate Domains (Canada) Company
Number: 2397937
Registrant:
Name: Virgin Enterprises Limited TMA 383374
Administrative contact:
Name: Ms Victoria Carrington
Postal address: 112 Kent Street, Suite 2001
Ottawa ON K1P 5P2 Canada
Phone: 1 613 2325300
Fax: 1 613 5639231
Email: email at shapirocohen.com
Technical contact:
Name: Russell Berman
Postal address: The School House
50 Brook Green
London EN W6 7RR United Kingdom
Phone: +44.2073132000
Fax: +44.2031263608
Email: email at virgin.com
Name servers:
a4.nstld.com
f4.nstld.com
g4.nstld.com
h4.nstld.com
j4.nstld.com
k4.nstld.com
l4.nstld.com
domain: virgin.fr
status: ACTIVE
hold: NO
holder-c: VEL21-FRNIC
admin-c: RD2263-FRNIC
tech-c: DA4698-FRNIC
zone-c: NFC1-FRNIC
nsl-id: NSL17525-FRNIC
registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC.
Expiry Date: 11/12/2017
created: 28/06/1995
last-update: 07/12/2016
source: FRNIC
ns-list: NSL17525-FRNIC
nserver: a4.nstld.com
nserver: f4.nstld.com
nserver: g4.nstld.com
nserver: h4.nstld.com
nserver: j4.nstld.com
nserver: k4.nstld.com
nserver: l4.nstld.com
source: FRNIC
registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC.
type: Isp Option 1
address: 2711 Centerville Road, Suite 400
address: DE 19808 WILMINGTON
country: US
phone: +1 302 636 5401
fax-no: +1 302 636 5454
e-mail: email at cscinfo.com
website: http://www.csccorporatedomains.com
anonymous: NO
registered: 17/10/2006
source: FRNIC
nic-hdl: VEL21-FRNIC
type: ORGANIZATION
contact: Virgin Enterprises Ltd.
address: 120 Campden Hill Road
address: W6 7RR London
country: GB
phone: +44 2073132000
fax-no: +44 2031263610
e-mail: email at virgin.com
registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC.
changed: 03/10/2012 email at nic.fr
anonymous: NO
obsoleted: NO
eligstatus: ok
eligsource: REGISTRAR
eligdate: 03/10/2012 21:10:50
source: FRNIC
nic-hdl: RD2263-FRNIC
type: PERSON
contact: Rebecca Delorey
address: Partner/Avocat associe
address: Gilbey Delorey 69 rue de Richelieu
address: 75002 Paris
country: FR
phone: +33 1 56 02 62 00
fax-no: +33 1 56 02 62 10
e-mail: email at gilbeydehaas.com
registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC.
changed: 08/09/2010 email at nic.fr
anonymous: NO
obsoleted: NO
source: FRNIC
nic-hdl: DA4698-FRNIC
type: PERSON
contact: Domain Administrator
address: Virgin Enterprises Ltd.
address: The School House
address: 50 Brook Green
address: W6 7RR London EN
country: GB
phone: +44 2073132000
fax-no: +44 2031263608
e-mail: email at virgin.com
registrar: CSC CORPORATE DOMAINS INC.
changed: 26/09/2011 email at nic.fr
anonymous: NO
obsoleted: NO
source: FRNIC
City: Augustfehn I
CountryCode: DE
Phone: +49 4489 941030
Fax: +49 4489 9410369
Email: email at kataplonk.de
Changed: 2013-08-03T15:21:00+02:00
**********************************
Greg Aaron
Vice-President, Product Management
iThreat Cyber Group / Cybertoolbelt.com
mobile: +1.215.858.2257
**********************************
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From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 1:33 PM
To: Shane Kerr <shane at time-travellers.org>
Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
Shane,
First, I would say that all legitimate purposes need to be catered for, so I don't think we can agree there. :-(
Second, I think the garbage can top analogy illustrates the difference between purpose and use. It is not a legitimate purpose of a garbage can top to be used as a sled, even if it is a potential use. (I don't think we can say that it is a legitimate use either, but hopefully we don't have to parse that issue, at least not yet. In college, we used to sled down the hill in the middle of campus on cafeteria trays (from the cafeteria conveniently located near the top of the hill. This was definitely not a legitimate purpose of those sleds. We students may have thought this was a legitimate use of the trays, but I doubt this view was shared by cafeteria staff or university administration. Or maybe we thought it was an illegitimate use, which made it more exciting (it's been a while...).)
I share your view that the need for the information is indisputable -- so we can agree there. :-)
Nonetheless, I think there are good reasons that it is important to identify the legitimate purposes of the data is collected, and to accommodate those purposes. Indeed, this is one of the essential purposes of this Working Group.
Greg
On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Shane Kerr <shane at time-travellers.org<mailto:shane at time-travellers.org>> wrote:
Greg,
If we can say that not all legitimate purposes have to be catered for,
then I agree with you. :)
If we say that tracking down the registrar of a domain as part of
trademark research is a legitimate purpose, that does not mean that we
have to design the system for this purpose, right?
To try an analogy: We can recognize that using the plastic top of a
garbage can as a sled is legitimate, but we don't insist on designing
lids with sledding in mind.
Full disclosure: My own take on the "legitimate purpose" discussion
with regards to "thin data" is that we need *some* purpose for both
gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy
laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it. Luckily I
think that there are so many such purposes that the need for the
information is indisputable.
Jumping ahead... as I said in a prior call (sorry for missing ones since
then), I would prefer that the information is then allowed for any
purpose, without restriction, because otherwise you have to have not
only tiresome rules about what is allowed but also the Internet Police
to enforce those rules, which seems like a step towards Armageddon.
Given that we're still talking about "thin data", which is basically
just a pointer to a registrar who has *actual* data, my own
recommendation is not to stress too much. This stuff is only very, very
vaguely personally identifiable.
Cheers,
--
Shane
At 2017-01-21 14:51:29 -0500
Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I have to disagree. These are legitimate purposes for collection, as well
> as for disclosure.
>
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Stephanie Perrin <
> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
> > I filled it out, but I am afraid for most of the purposes I could not
> > agree. We do not *collect *data for many of those purposes. We disclose
> > it to people for those purposes, but the purpose of collecting those data
> > elements is not for tax collection, trademark enforcement actions, etc.
> > This is the conflation issue I have raised repeatedly.
> >
> > Apologies if I did not make that point clear enough on the call.
> >
> > Stephanie Perrin
> >
> > On 2017-01-20 17:35, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
> >
> > Please note that our current poll ends in about 24 hours. So far only 16
> > people have responded.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg->
> > bounces at icann.org<mailto:bounces at icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>>] *On Behalf Of *Lisa
> > Phifer
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 1:50 PM
> > *To:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
> > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on
> > Purpose
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As directed in the 18 January WG call, this week's new Poll on Purpose is
> > now open for WG member participation:
> >
> > https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SZX9QJZ
> >
> > A PDF of this poll's questions and notes/recordings of the meeting are
> > posted on the 18 January meeting page: https://community.icann.org/x/
> > EbTDAw
> >
> > This poll will close at *COB Saturday 21 January 2017*.
> >
> > All WG members are encouraged to participate in this poll to help advance
> > deliberation and prepare for next week's meeting.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Lisa
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing listgnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg<http://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >
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