[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose

Holly Raiche h.raiche at internode.on.net
Mon Jan 23 22:03:57 UTC 2017 

Folks

While I have a lot of sympathy for Peter’s questions, I’m not sure they are the right ones to ask.

ANY person/organisation that collects personal data is, under most data protection law, a collector of data and thus subject to rules about the collection, use and disclosure of that information. At its most basic, the issue that has faced ICANN for YEARS is whether the contracts that it has with registries and registrars are in conflict with data protection legislation that those registries/registrars are bound by.

So the issue is NOT whether ICANN is a law enforcement body or whatever.  The issue is about its contracts - enforceable documents on the contracted parties - that potentially put registries/registrars in breach of their national law.  The questions we are asking as a WG flow from that basic  issue.

Holly
On 24 Jan 2017, at 12:53 am, Kimpian Peter <kimpian.peter at naih.hu> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> 
> Adding to the purpose debate: usually it is common sense and wiedly reckognised that we don't collect personal data just for the sake of it or in bulk saying it will be good for one purpose or another. Usually data controllers have the obligation to say openly in advance this is why I am going to process (ie collect, agregate, transfer, etc.) personal data. Being said that it can not be excluded that those data will be used/accessed for "higher" common good and for the benefit for all by another athorised data controller. For example a telco company can if all conditions met disclose (!) data it previously collected to law enforcement agencies but this does not mean that the Telco compony can collect, process etc data for law enforcement purpose...
> 
> 
> My simple question to start with would be and always was: Is ICANN a law enforcement body? Does ICANN have any power/competence in fighting against crime? And it goes for other purposes as well: Is ICANN an international trademark organisation? Etc...Is the answer given to those questions is shared by all the community of ICANN? In my sense we have to be sure that we answer first those questions before deciding on possible purposes (which does not mean that discloser of data on a case-by case base according to international legal requirements will not be possible after this, but those will be exceptions !!!)
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 
> Peter
> 2017.01.22. 19:20 keltezéssel, Stephanie Perrin írta:
>> I love your analogy Shane, it is perfect.  In data protection terms that would be a use.  For a legitimate purpose... sledding.  There might have to be repercussions if you cracked the lid....that might be a data breach:-)
>> 
>> I hate being a nit picker and calling out this distinction between purpose of collection as opposed to purpose for use and disclosure, but it is extremely important in terms of data protection.  Some laws are more clear than others on the distinction, and you are correct that if we are not careful DP laws will forbid the collection and disclosure of the data.  It is certainly clear that for collection of thin data, there is ample justification for collecting the info based on ICANN's limited mandate.  However adding law enforcement and other similar website related investigative activities to the list of legitimate purposes is in my view opening a barn door.  After a year of discussion we may understand the nuance, that we are talking about thin data, etc etc but when the fruits of our labours are published, it looks like we have all agreed that law enforcement (eg) is a legitimate purpose for collecting registration data.  In my view, it is not.
>> 
>> cheers Stephanie
>> 
>> On 2017-01-22 04:03, Shane Kerr wrote:
>>> Greg,
>>> 
>>> If we can say that not all legitimate purposes have to be catered for,
>>> then I agree with you. :)
>>> 
>>> If we say that tracking down the registrar of a domain as part of
>>> trademark research is a legitimate purpose, that does not mean that we
>>> have to design the system for this purpose, right?
>>> 
>>> To try an analogy: We can recognize that using the plastic top of a
>>> garbage can as a sled is legitimate, but we don't insist on designing
>>> lids with sledding in mind.
>>> 
>>> Full disclosure: My own take on the "legitimate purpose" discussion
>>> with regards to "thin data" is that we need *some* purpose for both
>>> gathering and publishing the information, because otherwise privacy
>>> laws may prohibit companies from gathering or publishing it. Luckily I
>>> think that there are so many such purposes that the need for the
>>> information is indisputable.
>>> 
>>> Jumping ahead... as I said in a prior call (sorry for missing ones since
>>> then), I would prefer that the information is then allowed for any
>>> purpose, without restriction, because otherwise you have to have not
>>> only tiresome rules about what is allowed but also the Internet Police
>>> to enforce those rules, which seems like a step towards Armageddon.
>>> 
>>> Given that we're still talking about "thin data", which is basically
>>> just a pointer to a registrar who has *actual* data, my own
>>> recommendation is not to stress too much. This stuff is only very, very
>>> vaguely personally identifiable.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Shane 
>>> 
>>> At 2017-01-21 14:51:29 -0500
>>> Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I have to disagree.  These are legitimate purposes for collection, as well
>>>> as for disclosure.
>>>> 
>>>> Greg
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:02 PM, Stephanie Perrin <
>>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:  
>>>> 
>>>>> I filled it out, but I am afraid for most of the purposes I could not
>>>>> agree.  We do not *collect *data for many of those purposes.  We disclose
>>>>> it to people for those purposes, but the purpose of collecting those data
>>>>> elements is not for tax collection, trademark enforcement actions, etc.
>>>>> This is the conflation issue I have raised repeatedly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Apologies if I did not make that point clear enough on the call.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2017-01-20 17:35, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Please note that our current poll ends in about 24 hours.  So far only 16
>>>>> people have responded.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chuck
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-
>>>>> bounces at icann.org <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Lisa
>>>>> Phifer
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 1:50 PM
>>>>> *To:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on
>>>>> Purpose
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> As directed in the 18 January WG call, this week's new Poll on Purpose is
>>>>> now open for WG member participation:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SZX9QJZ
>>>>> 
>>>>> A PDF of this poll's questions and notes/recordings of the meeting are
>>>>> posted on the 18 January meeting page: https://community.icann.org/x/
>>>>> EbTDAw
>>>>> 
>>>>> This poll will close at *COB Saturday 21 January 2017*.
>>>>> 
>>>>> All WG members are encouraged to participate in this poll to help advance
>>>>> deliberation and prepare for next week's meeting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Lisa
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing listgnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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