[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose

Greg Aaron gca at icginc.com
Thu Jan 26 15:31:21 UTC 2017 

If thin data is considered private data, then ccTLD registries such as those in Europe and Canada would not publish it in WHOIS.  But they do.  They collect and publish it because it is important for legitimate and stated reasons, and doing so is consistent with the law.  The implementations and details vary a bit from country to country, but that's generally the situation.

For example, in Germany, where the privacy laws seem some of the most protective, the .DE registry publishes not only the thin data but also some contact data.  The reasons for collecting and publishing that include: addressing technical problems, addressing abuse, and intellectual property protection.  See below for references.

At these registries, thin data (and often at least some contact data) is available anonymously to anyone who queries it.  No one has to get pre-authorized permission to query it, no one has to declare their intended use case before getting it.

Some members of this WG are arguing that the collection of and publication of thin data, even creation dates, is a problem, or should be gated or permissioned.   Such arguments are inconsistent with legally vetted practices in front of us.

All best,
--Greg

DENIC (.DE):

https://www.denic.de/fileadmin/public/documentation/DENIC-12p_EN.pdf
"[If you make a WHOIS query] Besides the data of the domain holder, the output you will receive will include data on the administrative and the technical contact and on the zone administrator. On top of that, the technical data of the domain will be displayed."

https://www.denic.de/en/faqs/faqs-for-domain-holders/
"Why are other people permitted to see my data, for example my address, in the whois query?
This data has been rendered public in the whois query for some very good reasons.

Firstly, it is important to be able to contact you if ever there are any technical difficulties caused by your domain or its use, which might lead to problems for others. Of course, it would normally be your provider who would sort out such technical problems for you, but that does not affect publication of your data. It may happen that your provider is partly to blame for the technical difficulties and, ultimately, you, the domain holder, will be held liable (and that includes liability for any legal consequences).

Secondly, your data must be made public, so that, if your domain is the source of an infringement of somebody else's rights, it will be possible to establish against whom to proceed, if need be.

Against this background, incidentally, the German data-protection authorities have expressly approved of the publication of personal data in the whois query. Further information on this subject is to be found, for example, in the thirteenth data-protection report by the government of the German federal state of Hesse (sections 9.2 and 9.3) and also in its fifteenth data-protection report (section 8.7).

If you do not want to have your address made public, the only option you have is to get the domain registered by someone else whom you trust. This other person will then be the legal domain holder instead of you, and their address will, of course, be made public in the whois query."


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From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:16 AM
To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose


Does all data need to be available to everyone though? Is it not sufficient that there be authorized anyones that can get the data and facilitate the use for those that need it? I have no contest on domain name and name servers being public, but do other parts of the thin data expiration/registration dates have to be to keep the internet functional?

I do not dispute that there are purposes for legitimately accessing the data if it is there, but does it all have to be there?

Volker

Am 26.01.2017 um 09:36 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
Stephanie

Ok that's simple.
If you want a domain name to resolve on the internet you need certain data elements to be available to everyone.
That's a technical reality.

Regards

Michele

--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
http://www.blacknight.host/
http://blacknight.blog /
http://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
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Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca><mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thursday 26 January 2017 at 04:26
To: John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com><mailto:jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com><mailto:michele at blacknight.com>
Cc: Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com><mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>, Sam Lanfranco <sam at lanfranco.net><mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>, "dave at davecake.net"<mailto:dave at davecake.net> <dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net>, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org"<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose


I am not sure how we get to this discussion.  What I am saying, is that the purpose of collecting data has to be linked to ICANN's core mission.  AS Peter said a while ago, is the core mission to enable law enforcement investigations? No.  It is a legitimate purpose to use or disclose limited sets of data as required in accordance with law, but it is not the reason we collect or generate thin data.  This distinction is important in data protection law.  Nobody is saying we should not disclose the thin data, including name servers.  What we are trying to say, and obviously with very little success, is that several of the purposes for collecting thin data which were in the last poll, were not related to ICANN's core mission.  They might be legitimate disclosures of data, but they are not legitimate purposes to collect.

Displaying data in WHOIS is a disclosure.  We are not supposed to be talking about that yet.  We keep conflating the legitimacy of collection, and why we gather or generate data elements about a domain name, and disclosure.

Sorry to keep hammering on this, but it is a very simple concept that is fundamental to data protection.  No wonder we have been arguing about this for 18 years.....

cheers Stephanie

On 2017-01-25 21:06, John Bambenek wrote:
Regardless of the privacy implications, if someone who wants to look up a hostname and can't find can't figure out what the authoritative nameservers are for the domain, DNS quite simply will not work and with it the internet is down; go home.

Unless someone is suggesting we completely re-architect DNS, having nameservers tied to domain records is absolutely essential.

You could deprecate displaying it in whois but any DNS client would easily be able to retrieve the data because the resolver still has to know what to ask for.

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2017, at 16:08, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
Stephanie

Do you have any links to any legislation / regulations etc., that are this broad?

And honestly I don't see how a set of nameserver is "personally identifiable" unless you're using your own name in the hostname (which you could, but then I'd see that as your choice and not a technical requirement)

Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
http://www.blacknight.host/
http://blacknight.blog/
http://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>
Date: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 19:40
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com<mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>, Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com<mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>>, Sam Lanfranco <sam at lanfranco.net<mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>>, "dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>" <dave at davecake.net<mailto:dave at davecake.net>>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose


Unfortunately, in a world where the Internet of things is taking off, privacy advocates and authorities have to insist that data generated by or as a result of the actions of an individual or his devices(eg metadata, timestamping, etc) has to be considered as personal information.  If it is used to describe processes pertaining to that information, if it could be used to incriminate that individual, it is important that it be recognized as information for which individuals have rights.  Otherwise, we have a situation where the individual has no right to access information that may impact him, may incriminate him, but to which he may be utterly oblivious.  Sorry it is such a pain in the neck, but there we are.

Stephanie

On 2017-01-25 12:32, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
Scott

Sure, but if we go down that route we could make cases for a lot of things :)
My main problem with this entire debacle is that the data we're dealing with is pretty much useless and isn't personally identifiable.

Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com/
http://blacknight.blog/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Social: http://mneylon.social
Some thoughts: http://ceo.hosting/
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com><mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>
Date: Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 17:15
To: Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com><mailto:michele at blacknight.com>, Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca><mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>, Sam Lanfranco <sam at lanfranco.net><mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>, "dave at davecake.net"<mailto:dave at davecake.net> <dave at davecake.net><mailto:dave at davecake.net>
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org"<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 12:09 PM
To: Stephanie Perrin; Sam Lanfranco; David Cake
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose

Stephanie

Sorry, but policy + the technology go hand in hand. You cannot completely separate them and any policy that this (or any other) group produces needs to be technically possible to implement.

As to the specifics ..

I would argue that generated data is NOT collected, as it's generated.

If you register stephanieperrin.com<http://stephanieperrin.com> with us the only elements we are "collecting" that end up in in the "thin" data are:

the domain name string

the nameservers you're using (and if you don't specify any we'll use our own)
All the other elements are NOT collected by the registrar or even the registry from the registrant, they are generated as part of the process of the domain being registered.

[SAH] Michele, some might argue that the registration period is also collected from the registrant and is then used to generate the expiration date at the registry. A case might also be made for status values like clientTransferProhibited etc. I agree completely that generated data is just that - generated.

Scott



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