[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
John Bambenek
jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Thu Jan 26 16:32:37 UTC 2017
Yes, absolutely nameservers need to be available for anyone unless you
are going to force fundamental changes to DNS. When you type a domain
in your browser, your computer needs to know what nameservers to go to
in order to figure out what the IP is. It has to be exposed to
everyone. Whether it is in WHOIS is optional, but it needs to be
exposed via the gTLD. There is no mechanism in the protocol to allow
for a middle man. I suppose you could invent a DNS proxy and make the
gTLDs run it but it would still require fundamental changes in DNS and
likely would end the decentralized nature of it.
As an example:
ubuntu at ip-172-30-0-207:~$ dig +trace icann.org
; <<>> DiG 9.10.2-P3 <<>> +trace icann.org
;; global options: +cmd
. 3600000 IN NS C.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS B.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS M.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS E.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS D.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS I.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS L.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS J.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS F.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS H.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
. 3600000 IN NS K.ROOT-SERVERS.NET.
;; Received 853 bytes from 127.0.0.1#53(127.0.0.1) in 0 ms
org. 172800 IN NS a0.org.afilias-nst.info.
org. 172800 IN NS a2.org.afilias-nst.info.
org. 172800 IN NS b0.org.afilias-nst.org.
org. 172800 IN NS b2.org.afilias-nst.org.
org. 172800 IN NS c0.org.afilias-nst.info.
org. 172800 IN NS d0.org.afilias-nst.org.
;; Received 811 bytes from 192.58.128.30#53(J.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) in 18 ms
icann.org. 86400 IN NS a.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS b.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS c.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS ns.icann.org.
;; Received 746 bytes from 199.249.112.1#53(a2.org.afilias-nst.info) in 0 ms
icann.org. 600 IN A 192.0.43.7
icann.org. 86400 IN NS a.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS b.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS c.iana-servers.net.
icann.org. 86400 IN NS ns.icann.org.
;; Received 876 bytes from 199.43.135.53#53(a.iana-servers.net) in 1 ms
On 1/26/2017 6:16 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
> Does all data need to be available to everyone though? Is it not
> sufficient that there be authorized anyones that can get the data and
> facilitate the use for those that need it? I have no contest on domain
> name and name servers being public, but do other parts of the thin
> data expiration/registration dates have to be to keep the internet
> functional?
>
> I do not dispute that there are purposes for legitimately accessing
> the data if it is there, but does it all have to be there?
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 26.01.2017 um 09:36 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
>>
>> Stephanie
>>
>>
>>
>> Ok that’s simple.
>>
>> If you want a domain name to resolve on the internet you need certain
>> data elements to be available to everyone.
>>
>> That’s a technical reality.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> http://www.blacknight.host/
>>
>> http://blacknight.blog /
>>
>> http://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> *Date: *Thursday 26 January 2017 at 04:26
>> *To: *John Bambenek <jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>, Michele Neylon
>> <michele at blacknight.com>
>> *Cc: *Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com>, Sam Lanfranco
>> <sam at lanfranco.net>, "dave at davecake.net" <dave at davecake.net>,
>> "gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on Purpose
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how we get to this discussion. What I am saying, is
>> that the purpose of collecting data has to be linked to ICANN's core
>> mission. AS Peter said a while ago, is the core mission to enable
>> law enforcement investigations? No. It is a legitimate purpose to
>> use or disclose limited sets of data as required in accordance with
>> law, but it is not the reason we collect or generate thin data. This
>> distinction is important in data protection law. Nobody is saying we
>> should not disclose the thin data, including name servers. What we
>> are trying to say, and obviously with very little success, is that
>> several of the purposes for collecting thin data which were in the
>> last poll, were not related to ICANN's core mission. They might be
>> legitimate disclosures of data, but they are not legitimate purposes
>> to collect.
>>
>> Displaying data in WHOIS is a disclosure. We are not supposed to be
>> talking about that yet. We keep conflating the legitimacy of
>> collection, and why we gather or generate data elements about a
>> domain name, and disclosure.
>>
>> Sorry to keep hammering on this, but it is a very simple concept that
>> is fundamental to data protection. No wonder we have been arguing
>> about this for 18 years.....
>>
>> cheers Stephanie
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2017-01-25 21:06, John Bambenek wrote:
>>
>> Regardless of the privacy implications, if someone who wants to
>> look up a hostname and can't find can't figure out what the
>> authoritative nameservers are for the domain, DNS quite simply
>> will not work and with it the internet is down; go home.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unless someone is suggesting we completely re-architect DNS,
>> having nameservers tied to domain records is absolutely essential.
>>
>>
>>
>> You could deprecate displaying it in whois but any DNS client
>> would easily be able to retrieve the data because the resolver
>> still has to know what to ask for.
>>
>>
>>
>> J
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2017, at 16:08, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> <michele at blacknight.com <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Stephanie
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you have any links to any legislation / regulations etc.,
>> that are this broad?
>>
>>
>>
>> And honestly I don’t see how a set of nameserver is
>> “personally identifiable” unless you’re using your own name
>> in the hostname (which you could, but then I’d see that as
>> your choice and not a technical requirement)
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> http://www.blacknight.host/
>>
>> http://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> http://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,
>>
>> Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>
>> *Date: *Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 19:40
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com
>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>>, Scott Hollenbeck
>> <shollenbeck at verisign.com <mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>>,
>> Sam Lanfranco <sam at lanfranco.net <mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>>,
>> "dave at davecake.net <mailto:dave at davecake.net>"
>> <dave at davecake.net <mailto:dave at davecake.net>>
>> *Cc: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>"
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January Poll on
>> Purpose
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, in a world where the Internet of things is
>> taking off, privacy advocates and authorities have to insist
>> that data generated by or as a result of the actions of an
>> individual or his devices(eg metadata, timestamping, etc) has
>> to be considered as personal information. If it is used to
>> describe processes pertaining to that information, if it
>> could be used to incriminate that individual, it is important
>> that it be recognized as information for which individuals
>> have rights. Otherwise, we have a situation where the
>> individual has no right to access information that may impact
>> him, may incriminate him, but to which he may be utterly
>> oblivious. Sorry it is such a pain in the neck, but there we
>> are.
>>
>> Stephanie
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2017-01-25 12:32, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> Sure, but if we go down that route we could make cases
>> for a lot of things J
>>
>> My main problem with this entire debacle is that the data
>> we’re dealing with is pretty much useless and isn’t
>> personally identifiable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>
>> Blacknight Solutions
>>
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>>
>> http://blacknight.blog/
>>
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>>
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>
>> Social: http://mneylon.social
>>
>> Some thoughts: http://ceo.hosting/
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>>
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.:
>> 370845
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Scott Hollenbeck <shollenbeck at verisign.com>
>> <mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday 25 January 2017 at 17:15
>> *To: *Michele Neylon <michele at blacknight.com>
>> <mailto:michele at blacknight.com>, Stephanie Perrin
>> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>, Sam Lanfranco
>> <sam at lanfranco.net> <mailto:sam at lanfranco.net>,
>> "dave at davecake.net" <mailto:dave at davecake.net>
>> <dave at davecake.net> <mailto:dave at davecake.net>
>> *Cc: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org"
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject: *RE: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18 January
>> Poll on Purpose
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Michele Neylon - Blacknight
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 25, 2017 12:09 PM
>> *To:* Stephanie Perrin; Sam Lanfranco; David Cake
>> *Cc:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Now open: 18
>> January Poll on Purpose
>>
>>
>>
>> Stephanie
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but policy + the technology go hand in hand. You
>> cannot completely separate them and any policy that this
>> (or any other) group produces needs to be technically
>> possible to implement.
>>
>>
>>
>> As to the specifics ..
>>
>>
>>
>> I would argue that generated data is NOT collected, as
>> it’s generated.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you register stephanieperrin.com
>> <http://stephanieperrin.com> with us the only elements we
>> are “collecting” that end up in in the “thin” data are:
>>
>> the domain name string
>>
>> the nameservers you’re using (and if you don’t specify
>> any we’ll use our own)
>>
>> All the other elements are NOT collected by the registrar
>> or even the registry from the registrant, they are
>> generated as part of the process of the domain being
>> registered.
>>
>>
>>
>> [SAH] Michele, some might argue that the registration
>> period is also collected from the registrant and is then
>> used to generate the expiration date at the registry. A
>> case might also be made for status values like
>> clientTransferProhibited etc. I agree completely that
>> generated data is just that – generated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
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> Key-Systems GmbH
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