[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access

Wed May 31 14:21:58 UTC 2017

I'm sure we could create a study, but that would require me having
access to creation times of domains and you want to take that away. If
Chuck thinks the mandate of this working group is so that the security
community can be held accountable to registrars for how we do our job,
just go ahead and put that in the charter and we'll have a call where
you can explain to use how to do our jobs.

"It seems you are protecting users by screwing over other legitimate
users."  I'm not the one taking money from people committing crime on
the Internet.

j

On 5/31/2017 8:49 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
> Do you have a study that supports this percentage?
>
> It seems you are protecting users by screwing over other legitimate
> users.
>
> VG
>
>
> Am 31.05.2017 um 15:39 schrieb John Bambenek:
>> Yes, we would. Because 99.99% of the time it IS suspicious. I bet
>> you'll be seeing delivery issues for say the first week. As someone
>> who's mandate is to, in essence, protect society, those are the trade
>> offs I have to make. But yes, it is an overgeneralization because I
>> didn't feel the need to explain machine learning and all the other
>> factors we use.
>>
>> That said, you can buy a DNS feed of new domains explicitly to block
>> them. And people do buy them because we can do risk analysis to weigh
>> the risks of false blocking with the huge amount of noise that it
>> stops. Such an approach all but ends brand-based phishing.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On May 31, 2017, at 08:28, Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> So if I register a new domain and immediately start using it as my
>>> new private email address, you would immediately consider that
>>> suspicious? Because I just did that a few months ago because my old
>>> address overflowed with spam...
>>>
>>> Many end-customers (normal people) also immediately operationalize
>>> their domains because they do not register it to use it later but
>>> rather because they have an immediate need for it.
>>>
>>> I think you are generalizing too much...
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 31.05.2017 um 15:07 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>>> And creation date is used by security as a hugely valuable
>>>> indicator of suspiciousness. Domain gets registered and starts
>>>> sending mail immediately? Obviously spam or malicious. Criminals
>>>> immediately operationalize their domains. Normal people don't. If
>>>> we want to weigh the harms, I think having that date prevents a lot
>>>> more problems than the ones you mention that can largely be solved
>>>> by a mediocre spam filter.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 31, 2017, at 01:33, Rob Golding <rob.golding at astutium.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Revoking that data can't stop brute force transfer attempts,
>>>>> If the status is Transfer Prohibited, then yes it does, as they
>>>>> are automatically failed by the registry when the gaining
>>>>> registrar sends them.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not about whether a domain needs a status, but whether that
>>>>> status should be "open to the public" rather than restricted to
>>>>> those who need it (registrant via their registrar, authenticated
>>>>> users for specific use cases, etc)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Registrars sell domains in precisely 1 year blocks
>>>>>> of time.
>>>>> one-or-more periods of years for most gTLDs, with 2,1,5 being the
>>>>> most common at my registrar (in that order)
>>>>>
>>>>> Creation date I left off, although it's easy to work out from the
>>>>> changes to the zone files
>>>>>
>>>>> Creation date does (in conjunction with the other data) get abused
>>>>> - I've had over 30 "contacts" from people trying to sell me seo,
>>>>> websites, stationary since registering a variation spelling of a
>>>>> domain on the 19th May (to help those who keep missing out the
>>>>> final "S" when sending an email to me from getting bounces) - 11pm
>>>>> on Monday from an Asian callcentre using a UK voip number (now
>>>>> reported to the TPS) being one of the most intrusive this week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst I can't stop the free pens, adwords vouchers, brochures for
>>>>> radiator valves and other tat coming through the letterbox based
>>>>> on a domain registration, I've even seen _registrars_ doing it :(
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't forget, but excluded Updated date - in my experience it's
>>>>> wrong at least as much as it's correct -  and my opinion is that
>>>>> data you can't trust does more harm than good
>>>>>
>>>>>  From 2 of my domains:
>>>>> 1. Updated Date: 2017-04-11T23:15:07.0Z
>>>>> is correct, as that is when I renewed it
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Updated Date: 2016-01-09T22:25:53Z
>>>>> is not correct as I changed the nameservers in Dec
>>>>>
>>>>> To me it looks like it only changes the "updated date" when the
>>>>> _dates_ on a domain change, not on other types of updates.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually like the idea of revoking all nameserver data. I like
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> idea the more and more I think about it.
>>>>> NS information is redundant in "whois", and depending on which
>>>>> whois server/system you ask, regularly incorrect - there are a
>>>>> variety of reasons for this, including but not limited to:
>>>>> * registrars don't tidy up
>>>>> * registries aren't realtime
>>>>> * 3rd-party systems cache the data
>>>>> * end-users dont know the difference between whois (service) and
>>>>> "whois" being in the name of a website
>>>>> and so on
>>>>> I've seen domains where Directi WHOIS has said one thing, a Whois
>>>>> website has said another and the actual nameservers were different
>>>>> to both of those on the domain at the registry (plus the actual
>>>>> issue I was diagnosing was that the zone slaved the nameservers
>>>>> off to yet different ns, which is why the A record the client
>>>>> thought should be returned wasn't the IP they were seeing)
>>>>>
>>>>> Use the right tools for the job, and in the case of DNS that's
>>>>> *NOT* whois - we'd be doing a global service to the internet by
>>>>> taking them out of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> SOA data is almost always garbage. 95% of the time I find it
>>>>>> useless.
>>>>> With DNS Zones being mostly automated by hosting control panels,
>>>>> it's "variable" as to what goes in there, and SOAs rarely get
>>>>> updated once created beyond the serial changing, so sadly yes,
>>>>> it's of limited use now
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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>