[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access

Wed May 31 14:46:40 UTC 2017

John, 

You are entirely wrong in your statement : Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer. 

Yet many of the largest and paid service allow you to edit just that record as the consumer. 

Kind regards, 

Chris 

From: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 
To: "Paul Keating" <paul at law.es> 
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, 31 May, 2017 15:14:53 
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access 

Point in fact, for consumers, SOA is NOT under control of the consumer. I would bet a very rare set of consumers who own domains actually run their own DNS servers. They are either using the registrar or their hosting provider. 

Sure they put in the data. But that is also true of whois/rds. No one does this for the consumer. They put in all their own data. Considering the number of domains under the control of various registrars that still accept all 0s for phone number, no one verifies that data either. 

This does, however, reinforce that making whois for free solves almost all of this issue. If consumers have a true choice that's free and the choices are explained, all of these privacy issues almost completely are resolved. 

J 

Sent from my iPhone 

On May 31, 2017, at 08:38, Paul Keating < paul at law.es > wrote: 

+1! 

Sent from my iPad 

On 31 May 2017, at 11:38, Victoria Sheckler < vsheckler at riaa.com > wrote: 

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+1 

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [ mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org ] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan 
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:36 PM 
To: Chris Pelling < chris at netearth.net > 
Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > 
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access 

Hi, 

This is a pretty strained example, since the RDS is irrelevant here. You can get the SOAs in the examples as soon as you know the domain name. You have no need to consult RDS at all. And the SOA is completely under the control of the DNS operator, and in the absence of Internet Protocol Police you can put whatever you want in there for your own zones. No real dns admin has trusted that field for years. 

This repetitious and always fruitless discussion of whether anyone can get any data to "abuse" out of the thin data seems to miss the point of why we started with thin data: it was supposed to be easy. I've yet to hear even one remotely plausible issue with respect to any of this data, because it's all needed by virtue of creating a name space on the Internet. That's what domain name registrations do, so if you don't want to expose this much data you shouldn't register domain names. Unless someone can come up with a single concrete example of something problematic, I'd like us to move on to a topic where there's some substance to discuss. 

Best regards, 

A 

-- 

Andrew Sullivan 

Please excuse my clumbsy thums. 

On May 30, 2017, at 17:22, Chris Pelling < chris at netearth.net > wrote: 

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ok - a thought : 

Thin data includes nameservers, being able to mass collect thin data gaining NS information then allows you to do a DIG of a SOA record on the DNS service to gain the email address of the hostmaster : 

Some examples (radomly picked from the list) : 

gmail.com : 

SOA ns1.google.com . dns-admin.google.com . 157458041 900 900 1800 60 
netearthone.com 

SOA ns1.netearth.net . root.netearthone.com . 2016090201 14400 3600 1209600 86400 

law.es 

SOA ns1.eurodns.com . hostmaster.eurodns.com . 2016061402 43200 7200 1209600 86400 

riskiq.net 

SOA ns-1754.awsdns-27.co.uk . awsdns-hostmaster.amazon.com . 1 7200 900 1209600 86400 

Now as you can see - those above examples allow you to get (or build) an email list. Most will normally point to the providers service, but, some that are DIY'ing their hosting, it might not be. 

Kind regards, 

Chris 

From: "allison nixon" < elsakoo at gmail.com > 
To: "nathalie coupet" < nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com > 
Cc: "gnso-rds-pdp-wg" < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > 
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May, 2017 21:52:32 
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access 

so can you name one specific example of how someone could abuse thin data? 

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:50 PM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > wrote: 
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Abuse is the improper usage or treatment of an entity , often to unfairly or improperly gain benefit. In our context, abuse is the improper usage of WHOIS/RDS to unfairly or improperly gain access to information or to game the system. 

Here are some of the overarching principles which should guide us when building RDS: 

DATA LIFECYCLE PRIVACY PRINCIPLE PROTECTION MEASURE 

Collection Proportionality and purpose specification Data minimisation, Data quality 

Storage Accountability, Security measures, Sensitive data Confidentiality, Encryption, Pseudonomisation 

Sharing and processing Lawfulness and fairness, Consent, Right of access Data access control, Data leakage prevention 

Deletion Openness, Right to erasure Retention, Archival, Erasure 

If such principles are not respected, ICANN will be liable. Consumers don't need to have all the thin data when making a query. This could protect them and enable them to have access to the RDS without raising much opposition. 

Now, we could discuss the possibility for broader query types. These principles would still apply, but would be contextualized in order to take into account new sets of parameters for each broader query. By increasing granularity as much as possible, while applying these aformentioned principles, we just might find a way to accomodate everyone. 

Nathalie 

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:00 PM, John Horton < john.horton at legitscript.com > wrote: 

I was going to reply to Natalie's email as well, but Paul's comments capture my thoughts, so: +1. 

John Horton 
President and CEO, LegitScript 

Follow Legit Script : LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Blog | Google+ 

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Paul Keating < paul at law.es > wrote: 
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Natalie, 

Thank you for the email. Im copying the list because i see others have replied to your comment. 

I strenuously object to the concept. We are discussing THIN DATA ONLY HERE. Unless someone can explain to me why any of this data set has privacy concerns this is a non-issue. I would certainly appreciate someone explaining what, if any, privacy issues are perceived to be at issue here. 

Moreover, while you suggest that the idea escapes the need to declare a purpose, it does nothing but reinforce a subjective criteria based system in which the declared purpose is used to somehow limit the data being retrieved. 

If i am missing something please let me know. 

Paul 

Sent from my iPad 

On 30 May 2017, at 21:08, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > wrote: 

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Hi Paul, 

In the context of thin data, in view of the opposition of some to allow unauthenticated access to all the thin data, the principle of proportionality serves as an over-arching principle at this particular phase in our work in order to protect data from abuse while not restricting access. 

Thin data must be proportionate to the query, be useful for that particular query. All and any other thin data foreign to this query should not be shared. This principle potentially avoids having to resort to 'legitimate purposes' which cannot be verified for unauthenticated access. 

Nathalie 

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:44 PM, "Gomes, Chuck via gnso-rds-pdp-wg" < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > wrote: 

Because Nathalie was the originator and was unable to speak on the call, I encourage her to describe the nature of the issue on this thread. 

Chuck 

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann. org [ mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces at icann.org ] On Behalf Of Paul Keating 
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:17 PM 
To: Lisa Phifer < lisa at corecom.com >; RDS PDP WG < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access 

Im sorry to have missed the call but had a client engagement. 

Can someone briefly describe the nature of the issue? 

Thanks 

Paul 

From: < gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@ icann.org > on behalf of Lisa Phifer < lisa at corecom.com > 
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:52 PM 
To: RDS PDP WG < gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org > 
Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Principle on Proportionality for "Thin Data"access 

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All, per today's call action item: 

Action Item: Nathalie Coupet and any other WG members who wish to do so to propose to the WG list a new principle on proportionality for "thin data." All WG members to comment on that proposed principle in advance of next call. 

we are starting a new thread here which anyone may reply to if they wish to propose (or respond to) a new principle on proportionality for "thin data" access. 

Best, Lisa 

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