[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] On interoperation and policy (was Re: Contactability)

Thu Nov 30 09:25:52 UTC 2017

What does this have to do with whois?

Am 29.11.2017 um 22:05 schrieb allison nixon:
> Yes, absolutely.
>
> You (collectively) have no legal right to force me to accept traffic. 
> And if I were to block you due to abuse, there would be no appeal 
> escalations above me. No lawsuit has ever been won to force unblocking 
> related to abuse.
>
> To follow Dotzero's example, I'd like to note the following example. 
> If you use Tor to access any Cloudflare website, you can't. Why? If 
> you have the time to read lengthy back-and-forths, this is an 
> excellent example of the graveyard many of you insist on whistling past:
>
> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18361
>
> Summary of that ticket: A Tor representative states that Tor has 
> problems reaching Cloudflare due to hard captchas. A Cloudflare 
> representative states that this is because of abuse. The Tor community 
> proceeds to plug their ears and say lalalala, the Tor network is full 
> of activists, and definitely not hackers! Tor cherry picks some 
> numbers from Akamai that support their argument, calling Cloudflare's 
> numbers unscientific, but admits to no abuse issue. After that ticket 
> concluded, Cloudflare implemented optional blocking features against 
> Tor. Tor had even appealed to the media, trying to stop Cloudflare by 
> making them look bad. Didn't work. And, as of a few weeks ago, Tor is 
> wholly blocked on Cloudflare, because the Google captcha service 
> blocked Tor too. Cloudflare hasn't noticed this for weeks, but Tor is 
> severely impacted and no one cares.
>
> The lesson to learn here is that if you're trying to convince a 
> network operator that their abuse statistics from you are imaginary, 
> they are still going to block you, and they really won't care about 
> your opinion or your losses.
>
> To further illustrate how much our values don't align, yet still 
> affect you, defenders also don't care about the well being of 
> registrars/hosting companies themselves. I've heard my colleagues 
> speak about bankrupting abuse friendly companies. To quote one unnamed 
> colleague who actually did bankrupt an abuse friendly company via 
> network blocks, causing a customer exodus: "They threatened to sue 
> me... but they went bankrupt so fast they couldn't pay their 
> lawyers!", which was met with laughter and approval by all. Nothing 
> bad happened to him, and even if he were sued, his company would 
> protect him.
>
> These are the attitudes that the gatekeepers of the largest global 
> networks have towards the hosting and domain industry. The same 
> numbers youall want to reject as "unscientific" are used to make 
> decisions that bankrupt companies in your industry. Keep whistling, if 
> you want. ICANN won't save you.
>
> If you don't like this, you have several ways out. You can take steps 
> to collectively and materially reduce the volume of abuse, or you can 
> give private network owners the ability to block on a granular level. 
> If you want to eliminate WHOIS, then your bad customers and your good 
> must necessarily share the same fate. In much the same way that the 
> good and bad registrars share the same fate with their *.XYZ domains. 
> This isn't something that's up for debate- this is something that's 
> going to happen.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Andrew Sullivan 
> <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear colleagues,
>
>     On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 06:21:16PM +0100, Volker Greimann wrote:
>     > suffice it to say that I do
>     > not consider their publications evidence. "Domains seen"
>     indeed... Ignoring
>     > them is the better options unless they develop better
>     methodologies _and_
>     > start sharing them for peer examination.
>
>     > Am 29.11.2017 um 18:03 schrieb allison nixon:
>
>     > > Love them or hate them, you can't ignore them. If Spamhaus
>     listed an IP
>     > > range, that range would suffer severe connectivity issues
>     across the
>     > > entire Internet. When it comes to interoperability, Spamhaus's
>     lists
>     > > effectively matter more than ICANN's accreditation.
>
>     I think that the above two snippets neatly describe the point I, at
>     least, have been trying to make about the Internet's operational
>     reality.
>
>     Volker's assertion appears to be that the right thing according to the
>     agreed-upon evaluation criteria is what ought to be guiding us.
>
>     Allison's claim, however, is that there are operational realities on
>     the Internet, and that operators are going to do whatever they do and
>     that the ICANN community policies had better take those interests into
>     account, or find that the policies are irrelevant.
>
>     I would go further even than Allison does, because in my opinion she
>     is describing the _design_ of the Internet: it's _inter_networking,
>     and the only basis upon which it happens is the voluntary
>     interoperation by operators.  On my network, I get to decide what I'm
>     willing to accept.  That might not include everything on the Internet.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     A
>
>     --
>     Andrew Sullivan
>     ajs at anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
>     _______________________________________________
>     gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>     gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>     https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>     <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
>
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