[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Contactability
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Thu Nov 30 16:40:10 UTC 2017
My last message was sent before I saw yours, so apologies for that.
Thanks for leading us back to the path and apologies for straying in the
first place.
I do hope we will be able to move past the mistrust and accusations of
ill intent. This is not how ICANN policy work can work. I hope we can
instead focus on creating a model of an RDS that stays within legal
requirements but still does not break the internet.
Best,
Volker
Am 30.11.2017 um 17:33 schrieb Chuck:
>
> I agree that it is time to get back to Whois (RDS). In my opinion,
> the discussion on this thread the last few days has not been without
> value because it has clarified what I think are legitimate issues and
> possible consequences of decisions the WG will make. It also has
> demonstrated a large degree of mistrust; recognizing that also can
> have some value in our work but there is no need to belabor it
> further. Instead let’s focus on our tasks at hand, which currently
> are to agree on legitimate purposes for collecting RDS data.
>
> Chuck
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2017 7:04 AM
> *To:* allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Contactability
>
> Hi Allison,
>
> I'd be happy to discuss our abuse handling procedures (off-list), but
> suffice it to say that any complaint must be accompanied by
> appropriate evidence that will allow us to make a determination. When
> someone engaged in fighting abuse is unwilling to provide the
> necessary data elements that will allow us to make that determination,
> that is suspicious to say the least. When you request cooperation, you
> must be willing to do the same.
>
> Again, we cannot simply willy-nilly take action on someones' say-so.
> We need evidence that will allow us to defend our decision to take
> action if we are challenged on that call.
>
> We have seen complaints where:
>
> a) the complaint is based solely on the mention of a domain in the
> "From" field
> b) the domain name sending the spam message is not registered through
> us, but the domain name used as a name-server for that domain is
> c) it clearly is an issue of a hacked CMS
> d) the recipient had previously opted in to receive such messages and
> the alleged spammer was able to demonstrate that
>
> and many other examples, all from well-known spam fighters or through
> their reporting engines.
>
> If you do not trust us with the data we need to make a determination,
> we will not get this issue resolved.
>
> Now, back to whois!
>
> Volker
>
> Am 30.11.2017 um 15:48 schrieb allison nixon:
>
> See this is another example of the attitude I'm describing. If
> you're going to hold the requirement for evidence so high that
> you're requesting details that they are not willing to hand over
> (probably the identities of their email addresses that received
> the spam, or something like that, right? Or a large volume of
> evidence that would tie up their time procuring?), then you aren't
> going to get what you want. Your company is just another registrar
> in a vast ocean of registrars that get complaints, and none of us
> have time to spend on any of them. Registrars are not trusted by
> default, either.
>
> You can classify that as blackhat behavior if you want, but where
> is the extortion? They seem to be only requesting that you reduce
> the volume of lawbreaking customers that pay you money for the
> opportunity. Find me a judge that won't sympathize with that. The
> spammers haven't been able to, in all their lawsuits filed against
> spamhaus.
>
> There is also the credibility issue. From the perspective of a
> network operator, when they see a conflict between spamhaus saying
> something is spam, and a registrar saying they wont do anything
> about it because the spam email doesnt literally pass through
> their nameservers(of course it wouldn't), spamhaus has far more
> credibility than anything your company says. You've already lost
> in the court of public opinion, which is the only one that matters
> in this situation. Your domains won't get unblocked.
>
> You can complain about blackhat activity till the cows come home
> but you won't find a judge in the civilized world that will side
> with you. And if whois goes away, you may find that spamhaus's
> opinions of your domains are going to affect you even more.
>
> Further verbal assaults against spamhaus only make your company
> look like a spam friendly organization in the eyes of network
> operators. It won't get you unblocked and will probably only make
> the situation worse.
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> I can just re-iterate that any responsible registrar will take
> action when provided with actionable evidence of abuse by
> their customers. Reports by black-hats like Spamhouse that
> usually only make unsubstantiated claims and refuse to provide
> actual evidence and instead rely on threats like the ones you
> are making do not deserve the same consideration. We will take
> any of their reports and if they can be independently
> verified, we will take action, but we cannot take their word
> as gospel.
>
> The usual communication with them goes something like this:
>
> Them: "This domain is bad and you should feel bad for having
> registered it."
>
> Us: "Well, we cannot check that ourselves since the abuse does
> not pass our servers! Can you provide evidence?"
>
> Them: "Here is the link to the evidence!"
>
> Us: "That is not evidence, those are claims. Can you show us
> these claims are true?"
>
> Them: "We do not share our methodologies."
>
> Us: "As we cannot confirm the complaint and have seen no
> evidence that we can verify, so I am afraid we cannot help you
> until you do give us something more substantial"
>
> Them: "If you do not immediately take action, we will: (1) Lie
> to ICANN about you not responding to abuse complaints; (2)
> blacklist your all services even though they were not involved
> in the alleged abuse."
>
> That, to me, is a black hat. They may mean well, but it makes
> them unreliable as a source. We need evidence of abuse to take
> action, not claims and of you cannot provide such evidence,
> then you have no business in fighting abuse.
>
> Volker
>
>
>
>
> Am 29.11.2017 um 18:39 schrieb allison nixon:
>
> This is the exact attitude I'm referring to. Not
> specifically only from Volker, but also from other people.
> This is why Internet users will increasingly turn their
> backs on ICANN's DNS. Unless the ICANN community steps
> outside of their bubble and actually recognizes the
> problems the average Internet user faces. ICANN may have a
> monopoly on domain names, but it's not immune to
> consequences caused by bad caretaking.
>
> And wholly invalidating the opinions of a blacklist
> provider that enjoys the largest support base (AFAIK) of
> average Internet users is a perfect example of this. It is
> to ignore evidence of a serious defect in your(the
> collective you) own product, when people are actively
> trying to notify you of such.
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> I think we are moving away from the topic, but suffice
> it to say that I do not consider their publications
> evidence. "Domains seen" indeed... Ignoring them is
> the better options unless they develop better
> methodologies _and_ start sharing them for peer
> examination.
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> Am 29.11.2017 um 18:03 schrieb allison nixon:
>
> Spamhaus's list IS "actual evidence"
>
> They are based on domains they have seen, which
> are e-mails sent using domains from that
> registrar. Most of the hate out there against
> Spamhaus comes from spammers but they are AFAIK
> the largest provider of blocklists out there. That
> only happens because their customers see the
> results they want.
>
> Love them or hate them, you can't ignore them. If
> Spamhaus listed an IP range, that range would
> suffer severe connectivity issues across the
> entire Internet. When it comes to
> interoperability, Spamhaus's lists effectively
> matter more than ICANN's accreditation. The
> Internet is relying more and more heavily on these
> services because ICANN has failed to keep its
> product clean.
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
> Interesting statistic, but as it is coming
> from Spamhaus, I'll take it with a grain of
> salt, especially if the "Domains seen" number
> does not match the number of domains a
> registrar actually has under management. I am
> not disputing that some of these registrars
> may be problematic, but will reserve judgment
> until I see some actual evidence.
>
> Volker
>
> Am 29.11.2017 um 17:23 schrieb allison nixon:
>
> Hi Bastiaan,
>
> >>A question though. I understand how ’TLD
> blocking’ would work as an effective
> albeit sledge hammer way of mitigating
> certain forms of spam. And I get the
> concept of blocking all traffic coming
> from particular hosting-providers,
> ignoring cases where spoofing of prefixes
> is involved. But what exactly is
> ‘registrar level blocking’?
>
> >>The example you refer to is (also) a
> hosting/cloud-provider - but if that were
> not the case, what can ‘blocked’ purely
> looking at the registrar service provided?
>
> "registrar level blocking" isn't a feature
> that's available to most e-mail inbox
> owners because it is a lot more
> complicated than writing a wildcard for
> example *.xyz for an entire TLD. It would
> probably require a multi step process of
> WHOIS querying the domain -> parse for
> registrar -> check block lists. I'm unsure
> how the large operators do it exactly.
>
> But if you look at this page:
>
> https://www.spamhaus.org/statistics/registrars/
>
> you can see a list of which registrars
> feature most prominently in spam.
> Registrars that get to the point have a
> business model where they profit from
> these types of customers. Alpnames in
> particular was in the news because leaked
> communications revealed they were aware of
> the spamming and offered to not suspend
> the domains for abuse. A bulletproof
> registrar, if you will. Despite this
> incident, and despite being on the
> Spamhaus list of "worst registrars" months
> later, they are still an actual registrar
> accredited by ICANN. An equally valid
> participant in the DNS as any of you here.
>
> And that is barely scratching the surface.
>
> So you can also see how the desire to
> block an entire registrar's customerbase
> is directly linked to ICANN's failure to
> decertify the registrar.
>
> Compare this "not my problem" attitude to
> the attitude that the Google Chrome team
> has towards its list of trusted
> certificate providers. They have no qualms
> about giving the death penalty to abusers.
> Google is also requiring companies to
> produce "certificate transparency" logs, a
> real time feed of all the certs they sign,
> and who they are for. Instead of wringing
> their hands about privacy solely on the
> website owner's side, they understand that
> these are tools massively used for abuse
> and actually take into account the rights
> of people being abused by these tools.
>
> As a result of these differing attitudes,
> the Chrome browser enjoys a lot of public
> trust, with almost no demand for custom
> trust lists, and ICANN's naming system
> loses legitimacy every day as the
> collective masses of the Internet
> increasingly turn their backs on them.
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Bastiaan
> Goslings <bastiaan.goslings at ams-ix.net
> <mailto:bastiaan.goslings at ams-ix.net>> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Allison:
>
> > On 28 Nov 2017, at 22:30, allison
> nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com
> <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I do not believe it is off topic to
> consider the downstream implications
> of the actions we take. It is of
> critical importance!
> >
> > When the WHOIS for .amsterdam and
> .frl became largely obfuscated, I was
> not worried much about it, because the
> extremely high cost of those domains
> precluded abuse from them in the first
> place. For that reason, nothing happened.
> >
> > In the defender world, if we lose
> WHOIS as a reputation factor, other
> reputation factors become much more
> prominent. TLD blocking is very easy
> with the tools we already have, but
> with the loss of WHOIS we are going to
> see a strong upsurge in the demand for
> registrar level blocking. So, say
> Alpnames is spamming a lot of people,
> and as an owner of an e-mail inbox, I
> don't want to get any more e-mails
> from Alpnames customers. Multiple of
> my colleagues at large networks have
> revealed to me that in the past, they
> have done a registrar level block, and
> the economic pressure on the
> registrars caused them to clean up
> their act with an impressive amount of
> motivation. It's something that most
> tools don't currently support, but
> likely will in the future.
> >
> > If the registrars will be the only
> people who have any clue who their
> customers are, I think we will see a
> strong shift towards forcing those
> registrars to take more responsibility
> for their pollution. This is something
> I am seeing increasingly advocated in
> defender circles, so outsiders are
> likely going to see the results of
> this in upcoming years.
> >
> > With the direction I see things
> going, I believe that anti-abuse will
> involve imposing economic pressure on
> registrars. It's not unlike how
> notorious hosting providers have been
> de-peered in the past due to abuse,
> and there is a lot of legal precedent
> to support the legitimacy of this
> strategy.
> >
> > Also, many of us outside the ICANN
> community don't see the death of the
> new TLDs as a bad thing. More people
> are interested in blocking them than
> supporting them. Companies are also
> realizing that it isn't a good idea to
> run their businesses on new TLDs. Some
> of us will cheer when they finally go
> away.
>
>
> Without any specific knowledge of the
> industry, your line of reasoning makes
> sense to me, i.e. ‘If the registrars
> will be the only people who have any
> clue who their customers are, I think
> we will see a strong shift towards
> forcing those registrars to take more
> responsibility’ as well as the
> ‘anti-abuse will involve imposing
> economic pressure on registrars’.
>
> (Fyi I will not comment on the ’their
> pollution’)
>
> A question though. I understand how
> ’TLD blocking’ would work as an
> effective albeit sledge hammer way of
> mitigating certain forms of spam. And
> I get the concept of blocking all
> traffic coming from particular
> hosting-providers, ignoring cases
> where spoofing of prefixes is
> involved. But what exactly is
> ‘registrar level blocking’?
>
> The example you refer to is (also) a
> hosting/cloud-provider - but if that
> were not the case, what can ‘blocked’
> purely looking at the registrar
> service provided?
>
> -Bastiaan
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 3:11 PM,
> theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl
> <mailto:gtheo at xs4all.nl>> wrote:
> > Agreed Kris,
> >
> > Thanks, Allison, though this is, I
> guess, the cold hard truth, selling
> domains dirt cheap or giving them away
> is a sure method to poison a TLD, I
> think it is a separate issue when
> discussing RDS.
> >
> > And the examples are clear, and at a
> point, such TLD operators need to
> re-think their business model and act
> accordingly to keep their TLD alive.
> >
> > So in May 2018, we will see a lot of
> use of the privacy services due to the
> GDPR, I guess mostly at a Registrar
> level, but let's not rule out that it
> might be on a Registry level, the
> dynamics here are shifting day by day.
> > So my question here, and I hope we
> can discuss this in good faith, but it
> seems to me that the WHOIS will be an
> irrelevant factor when it comes to the
> risk/reputation score?
> > How does/will that play out?
> > And yes, this is not exactly related
> to our work when it comes to RDS, but
> since we have the expertise here, I
> think it would be useful to explore
> this a little more even though off
> topic. I hope the leadership team
> allows this to get a better
> understanding, for the community on
> what is going down and might happen in
> a just a few months here.
> > And if we need to do this offlist,
> sure, no problem. I am just trying to
> get a sense to here to comply with the
> law and keep a business running.
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Theo
> >
> >
> > On 28-11-2017 20:57, John Bambenek
> via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
> >> Full agreement on this point
> >>
> >> On 11/28/2017 01:30 PM, Kris
> Seeburn wrote:
> >>> As we move on …one way or the
> other the GDPR and other aligned
> privacy laws will catch up eventually.
> We will need to find levels and
> technical ways and reasons to get
> things to work. We move to RDAPis fine
> as we look ahead but we should be able
> to not only look at the laws that we
> need to respect but also to find
> technical ways to get and make sure
> things still continue towork. As this
> stage personally both are as important.
> >>>
> >>>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 23:15,
> allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com
> <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Most systems operators are not
> afraid to block entire TLDs. While
> there are no scientific studies out on
> this matter AFAIK, the help forums are
> littered with people asking how to
> block entire TLDs, and also
> registrants on those TLDs asking why
> everyone is blocking them. It's enough
> to conclusively say this is already an
> issue, and we can thank abuse for this.
> >>>>
> >>>> In this Reddit post, a user
> learns the hard truth about his brand
> new XYZ domain:
> >>>>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/6jq6f5/getting_blocked_should_i_abandon_my_xyz_domain/
> >>>>
> >>>> This article discusses Facebook's
> block of all XYZ domains:
> >>>>
> http://adamyamada.com/facebook-blocks-xyz-domains-new-domains-pages/
> >>>>
> >>>> This Malwarebytes staff member
> explains to a legitimate registrant
> that all .SCIENCE TLDs are blocked and
> he gets no exception:
> >>>>
> https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/173535-all-my-science-domains-blocked/
> >>>>
> >>>> In fact, the Malwarebytes "false
> positive" forum is littered with
> owners of hacked domains that
> discovered their problem because of a
> block, not because of a notification:
> >>>>
> https://forums.malwarebytes.com/forum/123-website-blocking/
> >>>>
> >>>> This user asks for an 'Existing
> list of garbage "new" TLDs' to block
> >>>>
> https://vamsoft.com/forum/topic/597/existing-list-of-garbage-new-tlds
> >>>>
> >>>> There are 179 Google search
> results for people asking Microsoft's
> help service for ways to block entire
> TLDs:
> >>>>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+i+block+TLD+site:answers.microsoft.com
> >>>>
> >>>> There are 72,500 Google search
> results for "how to block" "tld":
> >>>>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=%22how+to+block%22+%22tld%22
> >>>>
> >>>> The Internet is effectively
> "broken" for any legitimate
> registrants on these TLDs.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a seller of some of those same
> TLDs, should you be concerned if your
> customers purchase domains rendered
> useless due to blocking?
> >>>> Would you actually refund a
> customer if they told you they
> couldn't use the domain for e-mail due
> to the TLD?
> >>>> Would you warn your prospective
> .XYZ, .STUDY, .PRESS, .PARTY, etc,
> customers that they should not use the
> domains for e-mail?
> >>>> When ICANN releases new gTLDs in
> the future, do you think that those
> domains will ever be able to send e-mail?
> >>>>
> >>>> Truly, the rest of the world will
> be fine. The more that ICANN has the
> "not my problem" attitude, the more
> the rest of the world is going to push
> back. ICANN seems to have lost the
> ability to release new gTLDs without
> severe connectivity issues, so we also
> need to ask the question: "why are
> these guys selling the digital
> equivalent of the scarlet letter and
> not warning their customers beforehand?"
> >>>>
> >>>> I think the question of selling
> defective products is one that needs
> to be addressed more seriously by
> regulators and outside parties.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can also tell you that security
> vendors are already looking into other
> anti-abuse techniques for domains
> post-WHOIS, and I can also tell you
> that they will result in an increase
> in the percentage of legitimate
> domains that are blocked. This is your
> problem now.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 12:43 PM,
> Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
> >>>> Hi Andrew,
> >>>>
> >>>> re:hotbed I was rather intending
> to ask whether there is a direct
> correllation between TLDs with
> redacted whois and issues that go
> unresolved. So do you have more
> unresolved issues in .co.uk
> <http://co.uk> than in .com (if
> numbers are normalized for registered
> domain names).
> >>>>
> >>>> I am sure no one would consider
> blocking the entire mail traffic
> originating from the United Kingdom
> Top Level Domain just because you
> cannot resolve some issues in a few
> domains, correct?
> >>>>
> >>>> So if everyone followed their (or
> a similar) model, the internet would
> not break. Some issues would get
> harder to solve (or take longer). I am
> asking because that is what most
> likely will happen on May 25 or sooner.
> >>>>
> >>>> Volker
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Am 28.11.2017 um 18:27 schrieb
> Andrew Sullivan:
> >>>> On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at
> 04:31:56PM +0100, Volker Greimann wrote:
> >>>> case of internet operability
> issues. While I appreciate that there
> can be
> >>>> issues that would necessitate the
> ability to quickly contact whoever can fix
> >>>> the issue, I wonder how this
> problem is solved in TLDs where whois is
> >>>> already redacted.
> >>>> It's not. In that case, if I am
> the one who has this experience and I
> >>>> can't reach the target, then the
> problem goes unresolved. In mail
> >>>> cases, as John suggests elsewhere
> in this thread, the answer is very
> >>>> likely that mail is blocked.
> People seem surprised these days that
> >>>> mail is so fragile, but this sort
> of thing is part of the reason.
> >>>>
> >>>> So how does it work there? Are
> these TLDs hotbeds of DNS issues and
> >>>> unresolved problems?
> >>>> I don't know what you mean by
> "hotbed", or whether that is intended to
> >>>> be dismissive. Some TLDs
> defintely have more DNS problems than
> >>>> others. Given how hard the DNS
> works to make connections happen even
> >>>> when things are badly
> misconfigured, lots of stuff will work
> to some
> >>>> extent even when it is badly
> configured. But DNS operations people
> >>>> trade stories about problems
> amongst themselves, after giving up on
> >>>> sites because whois can't help
> and the mname in the SOA record is
> >>>> broken. I find this happens more
> often than you might expect.
> >>>>
> >>>> But yes, there are broken domains
> on the Internet. I find it hard to
> >>>> believe that would be even
> slightly remarkable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> A
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir
> Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >>>>
> >>>> Volker A. Greimann
> >>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
> >>>>
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> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Volker A. Greimann
> >>>> - legal department -
> >>>>
> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH
> >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g>
> >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Im+Oberen+Werk+1+%0D+%3E%3E%3E%3E+66386+St.+Ingbert&entry=gmail&source=g>
> >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20901>
> >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> <tel:%2B49%20%280%29%206894%20-%209396%20851>
> >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> >>>>
> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net
> <http://www.key-systems.net> /
> www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com
> <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /
> www.BrandShelter.com
> <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our
> fan community on Facebook and stay
> updated:
> >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> >>>>
> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 -
> Saarbruecken
> >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> >>>>
> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> >>>> www.keydrive.lu
> <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> >>>>
> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments
> is intended only for the person to
> whom it is addressed. Furthermore it
> is not permitted to publish any
> content of this email. You must not
> use, disclose, copy, print or rely on
> this e-mail. If an addressing or
> transmission error has misdirected
> this e-mail, kindly notify the author
> by replying to this e-mail or
> contacting us by telephone.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >>>>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> _________________________________
> >>>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >>>>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kris Seeburn
> >>> seeburn.k at gmail.com
> <mailto:seeburn.k at gmail.com>
> >>> • www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kseeburn/>
> >>>
>
> >>> <KeepItOn_Social_animated.gif>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________
> >>> _________________
> >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >>>
> >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >>>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________
> >> _________________
> >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> >>
> >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > _________________________________
> > Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> >
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
>
> --
>
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com
> <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com
> <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
>
> --
>
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> --
>
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
>
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
>
> Im Oberen Werk 1
>
> 66386 St. Ingbert
>
> Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901>
>
> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851>
>
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
> --
>
> _________________________________
> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>
>
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> --------------------------------------------
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> Best regards,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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