[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] [Ext] RE: ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
Alan Greenberg
alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca
Sat Sep 23 19:02:23 UTC 2017
Thanks for the summary Nick. Although we may have
wished that this played out another way, we are not in TOO bad a shape.
The PDP is looking at the NEXT version of
WHOIS/RDS. Within the contect of ICANN, there is
no other way to do this but through a GNSO PDP,
and hopefully we can actually complete this and
move forward. How timely we do it will depend on
how willing we are to work together to reach consensus.
The RDS-WHOIS2-RT: Some of us wanted to defer
this one, but for a number of reasons and in
particular how the new Bylaws were drafted (in
accordance with CCWG wishes), we had no choice
but to proceed. I among others tried to limit its
scope, but that did not work either. So it is
proceeding, but we will try VERY hard to make
sure that we do not overlap with the PDP. We are
also cognizant of GDPR issues, and will try to
not overlap there as well, but that will
partially depend on how quickly GDPR issues unfold.
GDPR: It is clear that the PDP will have to be
aware of and plan for GDPR-like protections (and
not limited to Europe), but the current staff-led
activities have a very different target than
worrying about the NEXT RDS/WHOIS. We have laws
that will kick in with significant penalties in a
few months - LONG before we will have a new RDS
ready to roll out. We, ICANN and our contracted
parties need to decide how to address the CURRENT
WHOIS in light of GDPR. Playing ostrich and
putting our collective heads in the sand is not
an option (despite it working until now for some!).
Perhaps the data commissioners will find that
what we are doing is warranted in light of the
history and alternatives. Or perhaps we will have
to shut down WHOIS completely. Or perhaps there
will be some middle-ground found. But it is an
operational issue with the current implementation
that is being addressed. It is possible the PDP
may learn something from how this plays out. Or
not. But they are separate issues.
Alan
At 23/09/2017 01:38 PM, Nick Shorey Lists wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>Thanks for all the information and discussion on
>this topic. Good healthy debate in a very
>important topic which is exactly as it should be!
>
>I recall raising this point during the
>cross-community sessions in Helsinki 2016, and I
>think it is still the case that we have got
>several tracks of closely-related work running
>concurrently which have the potential to impact
>one another. Nobody's fault of course, but IMHO
>it would probably be more pragmatic to do GDPR /
>Whois review first, NGRDS after.
>
>Whilst I will stop short of recommending
>applying the brakes at this stage, as I think
>there is definitely progress being made and work
>that can be achieved, I welcome and encourage
>the continuation of efforts to ensure open
>channels of communication with all groups and
>parties on activities that may intersect with
>our endeavours here, including dialogue between
>ICANN and data protection authorities on current
>policy issues around GDPR, that we can ensure
>our work here is able to take account of
>developments under the current system and fast-moving policy landscape.
>
>Best,
>
>Nick
>
>Nick Shorey
>Phone: +44 (0) 7552 455 988
>Email: <mailto:lists at nickshorey.com>lists at nickshorey.com
>Skype: nick.shorey
>Twitter: @nickshorey
>LinkedIn:
><http://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin>www.linkedin.com/in/nicklinkedin
>Web: <http://www.nickshorey.com>www.nickshorey.com
>
>On 23 Sep 2017, at 17:51, Kris Seeburn
><<mailto:seeburn.k at gmail.com>seeburn.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
><https://community.icann.org/display/WHO/RDS-WHOIS2+Review>https://community.icann.org/display/WHO/RDS-WHOIS2+Review
>
>Thats what marika is referring to i guess.
>
>
>
>>On Sep 23, 2017, at 20:46, Paul Keating
>><<mailto:paul at law.es>paul at law.es> wrote:
>>
>>Does anyone have the details of the meeting Marisa is referencing?
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Paul Keating, Esq.
>>
>>On Sep 23, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Marika Konings
>><<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>marika.konings at icann.org> wrote:
>>
>>>I presume he is referring to the RDS/WHOIS 2
>>>Review Team meeting that is taking place in
>>>Brussels in early October as I am not aware of any other RDS meeting.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>
>>>Marika
>>>
>>>On 23 Sep 2017, at 09:19, Metalitz, Steven
>>><<mailto:met at msk.com>met at msk.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thanks for sharing this Marika?
>>>>
>>>>What RDS F2F in Brussels is James referring
>>>>to in his message? Is it a meeting of this WG or something else?
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sent with Good (<http://www.good.com/>www.good.com)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Marika Konings
>>>>[<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>marika.konings at icann.org]
>>>>Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 06:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>To: Stephanie Perrin;
>>>><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN
>>>>Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>>>
>>>>In relation to the Brussels meeting, please
>>>>see the message that James Bladel just shared
>>>>with the GNSO Council. I’ll follow up with
>>>>my colleagues to see if there is further
>>>>information available about the panel in Hong Kong. I’ll keep you posted.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Marika
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From:
>>>><<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
>>>>on behalf of Stephanie Perrin
>>>><<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
>>>>Date: Friday, September 22, 2017 at 17:55
>>>>To:
>>>>"<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org"
>>>><<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN
>>>>Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I actually think everyone is correct here,
>>>>and if you all agree with me then I will go
>>>>apply for a job at the UN, they seem to need help.
>>>>
>>>>1. First, I am not sure exactly what Fab was
>>>>quoting me on, but I think we need to have
>>>>some idea what ICANN is saying to the
>>>>DPAs. As indicated, there is a Board member
>>>>and ICANN VP travelling to Hong Kong, to be
>>>>on a panel with the EDPS and the UN special
>>>>rapporteur at a conference of the world data
>>>>commissioners last week in
>>>>September....surely we might get a little
>>>>look at their speeches to inform
>>>>ourselves? I have read Goran's letter to
>>>>Buttarelli and am still wondering what that
>>>>is about.....unless it is to follow up on
>>>>meetings which we have not heard about. So
>>>>all I was asking for was a wee bit more
>>>>transparency as to what is going
>>>>on. Unfortunately CHuck was cutting out in
>>>>his response, but I gather he was not wiser
>>>>than I as to what is going on. Perhaps
>>>>Marika could inquire and get back to us?
>>>>
>>>>2. We in the GNSO Council have been told
>>>>there will be a meeting in Brussels of a
>>>>select few, to talk to the DPAs, in early
>>>>October. Still no date. I don't find that
>>>>acceptable, and again I think we have a right
>>>>to know what is being
>>>>said/negotiated. Naturally I would like to
>>>>be there as the NCSG rep, given the amount of
>>>>research I have done on this issue, but if we
>>>>don't find out soon it will have to be somebody else.
>>>>
>>>>3. This PDP should continue along its
>>>>course, but hopefully soon, a little better
>>>>informed by the legal analysis which the
>>>>leadership team has received. That ought to speed up our process, in my view.
>>>>
>>>>4. While I am of the view that the RAA and
>>>>the Registry contracts are full of policy
>>>>issues that deserve attention, I do agree
>>>>with Volker that interpreting the expression
>>>>"compliance with local law" or its variants
>>>>in the RAA ought to be left up to them. And
>>>>that, as you all know by now, in my opinion
>>>>means a much more private WHOIS, fewer
>>>>international data transfers, and greater
>>>>authentication of third party data
>>>>recipients. The fact that we have been
>>>>arguing about these very issues since 1998 continues to stun and fascinate me.
>>>>
>>>>5. If anyone is meeting with the Easter
>>>>Bunny, please bring chocolate to Abu. Looks
>>>>like it is going to be a strenuous meeting. Lindt will be fine.
>>>>
>>>>cheers Stephanie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 2017-09-22 12:27, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>The community does not have any active role
>>>>to play when it comes to the interpretation
>>>>and enforcement of ICANN contracts and
>>>>international law. This is an issue that
>>>>contracted parties will have to work out with
>>>>ICANN. To the contrary, I find it very, very
>>>>disturbing that certain interest groups believe they have a role to play here.
>>>>
>>>>Once the fallout becomes cleared and it has
>>>>been determined which policies and
>>>>obligations are problematic, the comunity
>>>>comes back in and can start working on
>>>>replacement policies. GDPR will have a
>>>>profound impact on RDS, as current practices
>>>>simply do not work anymore. While some tout
>>>>consent as the solve-all, be reminded that
>>>>consent must be free, informed, and can be
>>>>revoked at any time, without consequence to the service being provided.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Am 22.09.2017 um 18:19 schrieb Kiran Malancharuvil via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>>>
>>>>Hi Fab,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for your insights into this. You
>>>>raise a really interesting and important
>>>>point. I tend to agree with you that the
>>>>lack of community engagement in the
>>>>GDPR-preparedness discussions is very very
>>>>disturbing. I’m not sure I agree that it
>>>>should be conflated with the RDS PDP. I see
>>>>the GDPR discussions as related to Whois
>>>>“as is†if you will. I see the RDS group
>>>>as dealing with the future of Whois, that is
>>>>creating an “ideal†(or as ideal as
>>>>possible considering we govern by committee)
>>>>system. If anything, I think RDS should
>>>>suspend its work until we understand more
>>>>fully the implications of the GDPR on Whois
.
>>>>but I don’t think the RDS discussions have a place in the GDPR discussions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That said, I do think we have a ton of
>>>>experts in this group, and we should probably
>>>>all be participating in whatever capacity we can in both discussions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I hope that makes sense and that I’m
>>>>appropriately understanding what your concerns are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Kiran
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Kiran Malancharuvil
>>>>
>>>>Policy
>>>>
>>>>MarkMonitor
>>>>
>>>>415.222.8318 (t)
>>>>
>>>>415.419.9138 (m)
>>>>
>>>><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.markmonitor.com_&d=DwMDaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=bbBiqSRujM-9tTsdiIvNgan-B3pJvqhiB3pBAmDIPns&s=dV6SpxX8kfNRYADWgZUwqjBumVUiXmvk0HyF2e6IuOU&e=>www.markmonitor.com[markmonitor.com]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From:
>>>><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On
>>>>Behalf Of Vayra, Fabricio (Perkins Coie)
>>>>Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 8:16 AM
>>>>To: Andrew Sullivan
>>>><mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com><ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>;
>>>><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN
>>>>Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Appreciate this feedback, Andrew. Simply
>>>>put, my concern is that these independent and
>>>>misinformed conversations will result in bad
>>>>decision making that will run counter to our
>>>>efforts here in this duly-constituted PDP WG
>>>>that is following the standard ICANN
>>>>processes for developing policy -- if not
>>>>render them useless altogether. Which in
>>>>turn highlights my earlier comment that this
>>>>side-show effort from ICANN runs counter to
>>>>the bottom up / standard ICANN processes for developing policy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Maybe it's just me making a mountain out of a
>>>>molehill, but Stephanie echoing these
>>>>concerns on the last call encouraged me to
>>>>reach out to my fellow WG members to see if
>>>>others share the concern and wanted to act on it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Others?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From:
>>>><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>>>>[mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
>>>>Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 11:09 AM
>>>>To: <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN
>>>>Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 02:51:44PM +0000,
>>>>Vayra, Fabricio (Perkins Coie) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > I couldn’t agree more with Stephanie and
>>>> find it incredible that ICANN, despite our
>>>> ongoing efforts and the plethora of
>>>> published community concerns, are continuing
>>>> with the approach of rushing to discussions
>>>> with Data Protection and Privacy
>>>> Commissioners “half-cocked.†Putting
>>>> aside the apparent widely shared view that
>>>> this approach is misinformed and dangerous,
>>>> it’s simply redundant of and does not take
>>>> advantage of our work within this PDP
>>>> process -- one could even say that it runs
>>>> counter to the bottom up and community led initiative on RDS/WHOIS.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't understand what the problem is supposed to be. We are a
>>>>
>>>>duly-constituted PDP WG that is following the standard ICANN processes
>>>>
>>>>for developing policy. If other parts of ICANN want to talk to data
>>>>
>>>>protection and privacy commissioners, or activists in favour of
>>>>
>>>>publishing all personal data available in the universe, or privacy
>>>>
>>>>activists who think the DNS should be closed in favour of onion
>>>>
>>>>routing, or the committee of the Present King of France and the Easter
>>>>
>>>>Bunny, why should we care? In the event (for which I have diminshing
>>>>
>>>>hope) that we publish a report that is actionable by the GNSO, the
>>>>
>>>>ordinary ICANN policy mechanisms will grind forward no matter what
>>>>
>>>>meetings people have had.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We can best contribute to that end, in my opinion, by focussing on
>>>>
>>>>getting done the work that we are supposed to be doing, rather than
>>>>
>>>>worrying about all the other things other people might be doing. By
>>>>
>>>>concentrating on this and making some progress, we might even reduce
>>>>
>>>>the temptation of others to second guess this process. At the rate we
>>>>
>>>>are currently moving, we appear to be destined to deliver something
>>>>
>>>>right after heat death of the universe, and I suggest that that pace
>>>>
>>>>is partly because there is no issue on which people are willing to
>>>>
>>>>focus, come to a clear conclusion, and then let that conclusion stand.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I therefore urge that we focus on our task and not make our job harder
>>>>
>>>>than it already is by attending to outside distractions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>Andrew Sullivan
>>>>
>>>><mailto:ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
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>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Volker A. Greimann
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>- Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>
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>>>>
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