[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] FW: WSGR Final Memorandum
John Bambenek
jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Wed Sep 27 12:40:46 UTC 2017
Considering your fourth point, then we are entirely in agreement. That was exactly the point of my excerpt, the opinion says if EU law conflicts with other jurisdictions, pick EU law even if that causes say a Brazilian entity to break its own country's laws.
Sent from my iPad
> On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:37 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
> first of all, I would appreciate not being screamed at. Let's keep this civil.
> Second, no one is saying legal compliance will be easy to achieve. Exactly because it is hard should we make certain that we do not make it harder.
>
> Third, our contract is beside the point because the contract cannot force us to break the law. That carve-out is included, and has been confirmed by ICANN time and again.
> Fourth, I agree with the opinion, unless doing so would cause breaking laws of another country (as Rubens pointed out with the Brazilian example).
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>> Am 27.09.2017 um 14:31 schrieb John Bambenek:
>> Which is an entirely different argument completely and wholly irrelevant to the case at hand.
>>
>> Businesses operating online have no way to verify the citizenship of their customers. So a US business could be selling domains primarily to US persons, not market or promote anywhere in the EU and end up having those customers (let's take the obvious case of expats), and if conflicts of law arise, violations of US law be damned, obey EU law.
>>
>> Yeah, that will end well.
>>
>> So let's go back to your example. So foreign company wants X for US government to operate in US. They must agree to certain terms to do so. They are free to operate where they are now, but if they wants X from us, we want Y. That's basically a contractural arrangement. So to answer an earlier question, why do registries and registrars have to run whois and allow data transfer? BECAUSE YOU KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGLY SIGNED A CONTRACT THAT REQUIRES IT.
>>
>> But in the present matter, we aren't talking about people with bona fide operations in the EU. The opinion says you can't distinguish between natural and legal persons, even if we did require passports it wouldn't solve the problem (dual citizens) and would create a huge data minimization problem. The legal opinion basically says ignore everyone else, follow EU law. Taken to its logical conclusion, a gas station in Pittsburgh should accede to EU law even when it conflicts with US law because its possible an EU citizen wanted a tank of gas. Surely you can see the problematic aspects of that as a lawyer.
>>
>> Likely you also can see why that portion of the law will ultimately be unenforceable too.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2017, at 4:28 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of imperialism, I know at least one country that takes the concept of sanctions so far that even foreign companies are prohibited of doing business with certain other countries that their countries have no beef with if they want to continue to be able to do business in that one country. So I do not beliefe Europeans are alone here, especially when considering that it comes down to enforcing ones own laws.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>> Am 27.09.2017 um 00:37 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>>> That's one consequence of imperialism, countries that don't want to be told what to do will simply disallow Europeans from showing up.
>>>>
>>>> Some basic things I derived from this opinion is that distinguishing between natural and legal persons is hard and we shouldn't try it. Distinguishing between EU registrants and non-EU registrants is hard so we shouldn't try it. And Internet governance should be primarily a factor of EU law even in the case of conflicts.
>>>>
>>>> Building a wall is quickly becoming the rational move.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 26, 2017, at 17:17, John Horton <john.horton at legitscript.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Much of this problem goes away if we all agree that EU-based registrars should henceforth only be allowed to accept registrants in the EU. Aside from the effect on EU registrars' revenue, what's the logical argument against that from a policy perspective?
>>>>>
>>>>> After all, isn't the purpose of the GDPR to protect EU residents?
>>>>>
>>>>> John Horton
>>>>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Follow LegitScript: LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | Blog | Newsletter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Jeremy Kennelly <jeremy at csec.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> Especially since those laws are not immutable, so even if we agreed in principle that they were an appropriate baseline today, even by the time today's interpretation was codified the legal understanding and/or the regulations themselves are likely to have changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It must feel to the group like I and others are being difficult on this issue but this is not a good foundation for an international standard. Do we maybe need to look at standard that provides a baseline level of privacy protection and guidance/building blocks for registrars and other constituents with stricter legal requirements?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2017 5:54 PM, "John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> I want to point out something on page 17, namely this quote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "We think the best way to avoid conflicts would be to try to bring the data processing practices of ICANN and the registrars in line with EU data protection law as much as possible, and to give primacy to EU data protection requirements when they clash with those of other jurisdictions."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a patently offensive claim of European imperialism. One ventures down this road with great consequences.
>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/26/2017 4:29 PM, Chuck wrote:
>>>>>>>> As most of you recall, at the request of multiple WG members, we decided in early June to engage a law firm with experience in European data protection law to provide our WG with independent answers to the same questions we asked the European data protection experts earlier in the year. The final report from that effort is what Marika sent to the list shortly after our WG call today; it is attached to this message as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All members are requested to review this report by Friday of this week if possible. The leadership team has prepared a list of principles that are excerpted from the WSGR Final Report and/or from the Data Expert answers that we think will be relevant to our ongoing work. We have asked the small advisory group that we formed in early June to review the principles and let us know if the excerpts are accurate and complete. After they have had time to respond, we will finalize the principles document and send it to the full WG for all to review; our goal is to do that by the end of this week so that we can use it in our WG meeting next week.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is the opinion of the leadership team that the information the Data Protection experts provided has been confirmed by WSGR in their final report, albeit with more detail in some cases. We also believe that our objective of obtaining an independent analysis of the questions has been met, so it is now time for us to put the information to use in answering the first four questions in our charter and that is the plan starting next week. To facilitate that, the principles will be mapped to the first four charter questions, a task that is now underway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am sure this WG could debate the answers received for the next six months but we are not going to do that. We received answers from the Data Protection experts. Some feared bias so we obtained an independent analysis. That analysis confirms the information that we had already been given with some clarifying insights. It is now time to apply that information to our deliberation and finish answering critical questions in our charter and develop RDS requirements for Phase 1.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I left anything out or anyone on the leadership team wants to add anything, please feel free to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chuck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 9:54 AM
>>>>>>>> To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] WSGR Final Memorandum
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As discussed during today’s meeting, please find attached for your review and consideration the final memorandum from Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, LLP (WSGR) concerning the final responses to EU data protection questions re. gTLD Registration Directory data. Chuck will follow up on this message shortly with further instructions and next steps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marika
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marika Konings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vice President, Policy Development Support – GNSO, Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email: marika.konings at icann.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Follow the GNSO via Twitter @ICANN_GNSO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Find out more about the GNSO by taking our interactive courses and visiting the GNSO Newcomer pages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>>>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>>>>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Bambenek
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
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>>>
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>>> - legal department -
>>>
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>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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