[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data Protection and Privacy Commissioners

Thu Sep 28 20:34:05 UTC 2017

Greg, this whois -> spam problem keeps getting brought up over and over
again and the people bringing it up don't seem to understand these other
facts about how spam or spam filtering works, because after actual
spamfighters bring statistics and facts to demonstrate that whois reduces
the spam problem a lot more than it increases it, the arguments come up in
identical form a little while later. There is a definite lack of
understanding. We'll probably have the exact same conversation next month.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Agree with Paul.  Furthermore, the house and the car are not useful in
> combatting spam.
>
> Meanwhile, WHOIS is very useful in combatting spam.
>
> So, it would appear to be counterintuitive and contradictory to make the
> job of "spam-fighters" harder.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Paul Keating <Paul at law.es> wrote:
>
>> While this may be true it does not present anything different from any
>> other product purchase.
>>
>> Try
>>
>> buying a car without getting spam from insurance companies
>> Buying a house without…….
>>
>> I thus have a problem considering that this is really a huge issue.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> From: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Volker Greimann <
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> Date: Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 6:04 PM
>> To: theo geurts <gtheo at xs4all.nl>, John Bambenek <
>> jcb at bambenekconsulting.com>
>> Cc: <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data
>> Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>
>> As an aside, I recently registered a new domain name for a new project
>> using a new mail address and in the 3 days that I have had it I already
>> received 5 spam messages trying to sell me services for it and 10 general
>> spam messages on that address. And that is after the spam filters of my
>> mail provider did their work.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 28.09.2017 um 15:29 schrieb theo geurts:
>>
>> Indeed privacy prevents a lot of consumers being exploited.
>>
>> Privacy by design usually plays a significant role when setting up
>> security around databases. Often, less is more, data that is not present
>> cannot cause a data breach. The GDPR had to set a whole bunch of rules
>> around data breaches and response times and accounting. Though given the
>> number of weekly data breaches, most likely for the best, yet it is still a
>> load of rules to deal with.
>>
>> Theo
>>
>> On 28-9-2017 15:19, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:
>>
>> Thankfully there are people who donate their time and talent tackling the
>> privacy and security risks that are seeking to exploit consumers. ;)
>>
>> --
>> John Bambenek
>>
>> On Sep 28, 2017, at 03:08, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The role of ICANN to ensure the stability and security of the internet is
>> a technical role, not one of being an internet policeman. That role is
>> already filled by internet policemen.
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 27.09.2017 um 20:05 schrieb Chuck:
>>
>> Without at all minimizing ICANN’s role with regard to security and
>> stability of the Internet because I do believe that is a critical role, I
>> do want to point out that that also is a limited role.  Here is a copy of
>> the first part of ICANN’s mission from its Bylaws:
>>
>>
>>
>> “Section 1.1. MISSION
>>
>> (a) The mission of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and
>> Numbers ("*ICANN*") is to ensure the stable and secure operation of the
>> Internet's unique identifier systems as described in this *Section
>> 1.1(a)* (the "*Mission*"). Specifically, ICANN:
>>
>> (i) Coordinates the allocation and assignment of names in the root zone
>> of the Domain Name System ("*DNS*") and coordinates the development and
>> implementation of policies concerning the registration of second-level
>> domain names in generic top-level domains ("*gTLDs*"). In this role,
>> ICANN's scope is to coordinate the development and implementation of
>> policies:
>>
>> ·         For which uniform or coordinated resolution is reasonably
>> necessary to facilitate the openness, interoperability, resilience,
>> security and/or stability of the DNS including, with respect to gTLD
>> registrars and registries, policies in the areas described in Annex G-1 and
>> Annex G-2; and
>>
>> ·         That are developed through a bottom-up consensus-based
>> multistakeholder process and designed to ensure the stable and secure
>> operation of the Internet's unique names systems.
>>
>> The issues, policies, procedures, and principles addressed in Annex G-1
>> and Annex G-2 with respect to gTLD registrars and registries shall be
>> deemed to be within ICANN's Mission.
>>
>> . . .”
>>
>> Note in (a) and the second bullet under (i) that it says “to ensure the
>> stable and secure operation of the Internet's unique identifier systems”.
>> ICANN’s security and stability role is limited to its responsibilities
>> involving the ‘Internet's unique identifier systems’.  I am pretty sure
>> everyone understands that but wanted to make sure.  For our purposes in
>> this WG, ICANN has a clear mandate to ensure security and stability of the
>> generic domain names system.
>>
>>  Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounce
>> s at icann.org <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *John
>> Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2017 9:12 AM
>> *To:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] ICANN Meetings/Conversations with Data
>> Protection and Privacy Commissioners
>>
>>
>>
>> Except that the domain name system is not YOUR system, it is ICANN's who
>> has a very clear mandate for the security and stability of the internet.
>>
>> The purpose is NOT letting registrants get domains and helping registries
>> get paid. It never has been.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/27/2017 09:52 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>> I think we need to dig down even deeper initially. Instead of RDS, the
>> core of the matter is the need for the data when defining the purpose for
>> collection.
>>
>> This is very easy to answer for registrars: "We need (certain elements
>> of) the data to be able to properly provide the business, invoice the
>> customer, collect his payments, send reminders and notices, protect the
>> rights of the customers in case of business failure, comply with legal
>> requirements like record-keeping, etc.". I am leaving out any contractual
>> requirements, as they do not matter for the registrars' own purpose. These
>> are external purposes that the registrar would have to execute without
>> having an own, direct need for.
>>
>> For registries, it gets fuzzier as they do not have a direct connection
>> to the registrants. From a service provision perspective, registries have
>> no need for the data, and no right to it, except maybe for purposes of
>> eligibility verification.
>>
>> When going beyond registries to the general public, there is no purpose
>> that connects to the provision of the service to the registrant directly.
>> There also (in most countries) is no legal requirement to collect and
>> publish this data. Yet there is still a need for the data, as we have
>> discussed in great detail.
>>
>> So our first question always must be the following:
>>
>> "How do we serve the needs of the general public that has an interest in
>> the ability of obtaining such data without violating any applicable laws or
>> the rights of the registrant to the privacy of his data?"
>>
>> This has to be the basis of any design decision and any argument made in
>> this group.
>>
>> Arguing that certain laws are unreasonable or unworkable is a dangerous
>> question as it effectively proposes to ignore laws that we as a community
>> do not like, at the risk of contracted parties and to the detriment of the
>> beneficiaries of such laws. just because there has not been any enforcement
>> action in the past does not mean we can ignore the law applicable to the
>> individual contracted parties. And we are not talking about jaywalking
>> here, some of these laws have significant penalties attached to them, as we
>> have also discussed before.
>>
>> I agree with Greg that the ability of contracted parties to be free to
>> make business decisions cannot be absolute. It has to be bound on the one
>> side by ICANN policies and the other side by applicable law. And these two
>> external pressures should not be in conflict with each other. If we can
>> achieve that while answering the basic question above, our work is done. At
>> least for the time being, as laws may obviously change, but that can be
>> taken into account as well. Any discussion that seeks to circumvent this
>> basic question will ultimately lead to the failure of our work and by
>> extention to the end of whois. The latter due to the incompatibility of
>> current whois with applicable law.
>>
>> I think with our initial "purpose definition" exercise, we already went a
>> great way in determining what those needs are and our current work to
>> discuss data points goes into that question as well, even though personally
>> I feel that by defining data points at this point and going into the sticks
>> in some of the discussions we are wasting time. The question should never
>> be "Do we need a Facebook contact in the RDS?" and always be "What contacts
>> are needed as bare minimum to achieve needs X, Y, Z, ...".
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 27.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Greg Shatan:
>>
>> The "data controllers" here do not exist in a vacuum.  While registrars
>> and registries need to be free to make many types of decisions in their own
>> business judgment, that cannot be an absolute rule.  This is at odds with
>> the ICANN model, consensus policy, etc.  In this case, the data controllers
>> are part of a larger ecosystem, and the "needs" go beyond the individual
>> business needs of each data controller. (Indeed, the individual data
>> controller has its own database of information for its business needs.)
>>
>>
>>
>> As I previously noted, we are going back to first principles -- which is
>> not necessarily a bad thing.  Why does ICANN (and by extension, the
>> Internet) need WHOIS/RDS?  That is the question.  Not "why does a
>> particular [registrar/registry] need WHOIS/RDS?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:12 AM, Volker Greimann <
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>
>> So when will you start advocating the collection and publication of WHOIS
>> for internet users? Because they would be connecting to your network all
>> the time...
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 26.09.2017 um 20:48 schrieb John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>>
>> "As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not.  Over collection
>> is not solved by providing a proxy in the third party disclosure
>> mechanism.  It is still over-collection, disproportionate to needs."
>>
>> I fundamentally disagree because the purpose of ICANN is not the mere
>> facilitation of domain from registry to registrant. The purpose is the
>> security and stability of the internet and that means I have a need to
>> verify who is connecting to my network and have a means of contacting them.
>> That point has never been made, to my knowledge, to them.
>>
>> The point that removing that ability of me being able to contact domain
>> owners does far MORE to REDUCE the privacy of the registrants than does
>> publishing said information.  We talk often about verification out-of-band
>> for sensitive communications. How can I do that without a phone number?
>>
>> I will loudly and vigorously argue that the path advocated will make the
>> problem FAR worse and not better. Hopefully we don't get to the point where
>> I have actual data to prove that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/26/2017 1:34 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>
>> As for privacy proxy solving the problem, it does not.  Over collection
>> is not solved by providing a proxy in the third party disclosure
>> mechanism.  It is still over-collection, disproportionate to needs.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> John Bambenek
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
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>>
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>>
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>> --
>>
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>>
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - legal department -
>>
>>
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing
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>> --
>>
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>>
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>
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>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>>
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>>
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>>
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>>
>> - legal department -
>>
>>
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>>
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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>>
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>
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>>
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>>
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
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>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
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>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
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>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
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>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
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>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing
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